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Lord Monckton on Bonn climate conf: They're at it again
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RogueMale wrote:

I'd do these things anyway even if global warming wasn't happening.


I suspect that a post fossil fuel world could be a much pleasanter place. It's making the transition that will be a bumpy ride because a lot of people don't understand.
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flogger



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
RogueMale wrote:

I'd do these things anyway even if global warming wasn't happening.


I suspect that a post fossil fuel world could be a much pleasanter place. It's making the transition that will be a bumpy ride because a lot of people don't understand.


Of course those who used flint axes must have been so much environmentally aware than we today. Very Happy
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Why do we listen to the IPCC when its boss is an ex railway engineer with no climate expertise whatsoever ?

So much for its credibility !
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JohnB



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flogger wrote:
Of course those who used flint axes must have been so much environmentally aware than we today. Very Happy

How is that relevant?
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Bandidoz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flogger wrote:
I'm the one trying to initiate debate not shut it down ..... this is a debating forum or a masonic lodge ? Confused

You don't appear to have understood the purpose of this forum.

This forum is frequented by people who are expecting a transition from heavy fossil fuel usage to low carbon energy over the coming decades, amongst a background of expected shortages in supply, as well as having to mitigate other factors such as climate change. Discussions on Climate Change are pretty much a sideshow on this forum.

Trying to initiate debate on whether such changes are not going to happen is somewhat pointless around here. Suggesting that we're an Eco-Fascist anti-technology fraternity would merely highlight further a lack of empathy, as most of us are nothing of that sort. We have accepted the changes that are most likely to happen, based on the evidence that we have seen, so the debate is predominantly about how we physically and psychologically prepare ourselves. As opposed to arguing round in circles against those who believe we are "Chicken Little" and have completely overlooked simple one-dimensional solutions that don't exist.
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flogger



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bandidoz wrote:
flogger wrote:
I'm the one trying to initiate debate not shut it down ..... this is a debating forum or a masonic lodge ? Confused

You don't appear to have understood the purpose of this forum.

This forum is frequented by people who are expecting a transition from heavy fossil fuel usage to low carbon energy over the coming decades, amongst a background of expected shortages in supply, as well as having to mitigate other factors such as climate change. Discussions on Climate Change are pretty much a sideshow on this forum.

Trying to initiate debate on whether such changes are not going to happen is somewhat pointless around here. Suggesting that we're an Eco-Fascist anti-technology fraternity would merely highlight further a lack of empathy, as most of us are nothing of that sort. We have accepted the changes that are most likely to happen, based on the evidence that we have seen, so the debate is predominantly about how we physically and psychologically prepare ourselves. As opposed to arguing round in circles against those who believe we are "Chicken Little" and have completely overlooked simple one-dimensional solutions that don't exist.


This kind of eco glooming has become its own little cottage industry over the last four decades. It seems to pander to a sort of Western Middle class guilt about percieved impacts our lifestyles are having on the environment and is essentially anti humanity and most certainly anti Western at its core. It ignores the enormous benefits industrialisation has delivered for mankind over the last two centuries in virtually every way.

A good example of this are comments by Maurice Strong head of the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio and until recently executive Officer for reform in the UN Secretary Generals Office. His comment "Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized nations collapse? Isnt it our responsibility to bring that about ?" Speaks volumes about what is going on in the minds of some environmentalists and most worryingly that this kind of extremism appears to dwell in high places . I'm certainly not anti environmetalism per se but I am anti extremism where improbable worst case scenarios are held as gospel and where the 'cure' kills the patient .

Its most certainly this extremism that represents a far greater threat to the bulk humanity and to all our futures than climate change or anything else for that matter and is why I oppose it Sad
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Why do we listen to the IPCC when its boss is an ex railway engineer with no climate expertise whatsoever ?

So much for its credibility !


Last edited by flogger on Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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2 As and a B



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You just don't get it do you? Increasing populations and energy use. Decreasing, and increasingly expensive, oil. No viable substitute. Business as usual is not an option, with or without climate change.

That human society will become highly localised and deindustrialised is certain. When is not known. How we get there, whether by violent collapse or by planned energy descent is up to mankind.

Believe what you like though. Time will tell.
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2 As and a B



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnB wrote:
Here's a detailed presentation disproving what Monckton says
http://www.stthomas.edu/engineering/jpabraham/

Thanks for posting this John.

Lord Monckton - what a complete tool! He clearly doesn't read, doesn't understand or deliberately misrepresents the literature he cites in support of climate change denial. And he has the nerve to call those warning about climate change liars!

flogger, what are your climate expertise credentials?
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flogger



Joined: 01 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You just don't get it do you? Increasing populations and energy use. Decreasing, and increasingly expensive, oil. No viable substitute. Business as usual is not an option, with or without climate change.


As as been said for decades yet we are more affluent than ever. We'll continue to use fossil fuels for the forseeable future though of course these are a finite resource. Who knows what kind of energy generation might be possible and most importantly viable over decades to come . Its all speculation. It reminds me of a quote from the start of the 20th century where it was claimed future cities would become increasingly untenable by the year 2000 due to the great depth of horse manure which would by then exist in such cities

Quote:
That human society will become highly localised and deindustrialised is certain. When is not known. How we get there, whether by violent collapse or by planned energy descent is up to mankind.


Possibly . There are a plethora of potential scenarios we could ponder on mankinds future. The only thing fairly certain is that we will likely all be wrong if history is any guide. ! When it comes to increasing industrialisation you cannot uninvent the wheel however hard you try .My beef with the eco extremists is thier worst case interpretation of everything we do as if it was fact. It is essentially anti human in nature. Saving the planet by lining up its poorest for pre extermination by imposing unecessary poverty on them (for thier own good?) on the off chance the environmentalists are right is always going to be a non starter as far as I'm concerned Sad

Quote:
flogger, what are your climate expertise credentials?


Common sense
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Why do we listen to the IPCC when its boss is an ex railway engineer with no climate expertise whatsoever ?

So much for its credibility !
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2 As and a B



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flogger, your signature disparages the head of the IPCC's credentials. Interestingly, Lord Monckton does the same.

Here is the wiki entry for Rajendra K. Pachauri where it is clear that he has a background that is totally appropriate for his position. He has published in Nature, Science and many energy, resources, environment and climate publications.

Lord Monckton has no peer-reviewed publications and no science background but would, I'm sure, claim to be qualified in common sense.

Lordy-Lordy, it won't wash. Sorry, but there you are...


Last edited by 2 As and a B on Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking as a graduate in chemistry from a top science university, if you base your scientific expertise of climate science on common sense, then you are going to come unstuck very quickly.

I'm getting bored with this one.

[edit]

I like this piece.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53651
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JohnB



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:
Speaking as a graduate in chemistry from a top science university, if you base your scientific expertise of climate science on common sense, then you are going to come unstuck very quickly.

I think the common sense is needed by those of us who aren't scientists, to make a judgement about which view is correct. As I've said before, I'm sure all of us would rather climate change wasn't happening, or wasn't a problem. Just watching and listening to "Lord" Monckton is enough to convince me that he's crazy and not to be trusted, while the case for climate change seems very reasonable, even though I wish Monckton was right.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ex-equine quadruped.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:
I like this piece.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53651


That's great!
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
RalphW wrote:
I like this piece.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53651


That's great!


+101%

Excellent.
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Bandidoz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flogger wrote:
Bandidoz wrote:
This forum is frequented by people who are expecting a transition from heavy fossil fuel usage to low carbon energy over the coming decades......Suggesting that we're an Eco-Fascist anti-technology fraternity would merely highlight further a lack of empathy, as most of us are nothing of that sort.


......It seems to pander to a sort of Western Middle class guilt about percieved impacts our lifestyles are having on the environment and is essentially anti humanity and most certainly anti Western at its core. It ignores the enormous benefits industrialisation has delivered for mankind over the last two centuries in virtually every way.

"Middle Class guilt" about eco-impacts has very little to do with it. With us it's purely about the evidence we've seen on the availability of resources in the near future, and wanting to make sure we're adaptable to those changing circumstances and likely scenarios. Being proactive. Making sure we're resilient enough so we can continue to enjoy having a warm home with the occasional hot shower. You've not understood a single word any of us have written; you just keep firing your Daily Mail prejudices at us. That's why you're being told to f**k off.
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Last edited by Bandidoz on Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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