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TEQs and imported goods

 
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13956
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: TEQs and imported goods Reply with quote

If a country unilaterally introduced TEQs or a version thereof, then theoretically a widget produced in that country would be dearer than one imported from a non-TEQ country.

Is there a short answer to that problem?
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Tarrel



Joined: 29 Nov 2011
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Location: Ross-shire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: TEQs and imported goods Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
If a country unilaterally introduced TEQs or a version thereof, then theoretically a widget produced in that country would be dearer than one imported from a non-TEQ country.

Is there a short answer to that problem?


Not necessarily. Company "A" could invest in R&D and technology to reduce its energy consumption per unit of production. Having reduced its energy consumption it could sell its spare TEQs and use the money to subsidise the cost of its products, thus remaining price-competitive.

So, although Company "A" would be competing on the international stage with other manufacturers unimpeded by energy restrictions, it would actually be competing domestically with a whole range of businesses to be the most energy efficient.

The commercial advantage gained by being one of the leaders in energy efficiency domestically is recycled to allow it to be competitive in the international market for its products, offsetting the disadvantage.

Devil is in the detail. TEQs would have to be dealt out fairly, reflecting the fact that some industries are more energy intensive than others.

...I think!
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13956
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the low-energy domestic widgets might in the end be cheaper than imported ones - though not necessarily so and, even if they do, it would take time. The transition would be painful and there'd be lots of resistance, even before TEQs are brought in. That's one of the reasons for the question. I want to counter this domestic/imported 'relative advantage' argument in simple terms.

As for your last point - one of the huge merits of TEQs in their theoretical stage is that it's fair and thus does reflect your fact. Whether one type of industry is more energy intensive than another type is (to my mind) irrelevant. No industry should get unfair treatment, whether positive or negative.
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Shaun Chamberlin



Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: TEQs and imported goods Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
If a country unilaterally introduced TEQs or a version thereof, then theoretically a widget produced in that country would be dearer than one imported from a non-TEQ country.

Is there a short answer to that problem?


Hi emordnilap. Apols that I haven't read this thread carefully, as I'm off to Reclaim the Power camp in half an hour, but there's an FAQ on this here, which may answer your question?

I'll check in again when I'm back next week.

Cheers,
Shaun
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5638
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2015 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an even deeper and more intractable problem with TEQs or, indeed, any form of consumption reduction economic mechanism due to the way that money is created and destroyed and the absolute requirement for physical economic growth implied by money created in this way. All that TEQs do, under such a debt-based systemic imperative, is move the deckchairs around.

Or, to put it more bluntly, TEQs are a case of putting the cart before the horse.
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Shaun Chamberlin



Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: London

PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
There's an even deeper and more intractable problem with TEQs or, indeed, any form of consumption reduction economic mechanism due to the way that money is created and destroyed and the absolute requirement for physical economic growth implied by money created in this way. All that TEQs do, under such a debt-based systemic imperative, is move the deckchairs around.


Totally agree with the need to address money creation. Alongside working on TEQs this is something I've written about repeatedly (e.g. here) and I was one of the early members of what has become the Positive Money campaign. We need both that and TEQs, absolutely. The implementation of either should help pave the way for the implementation of the other.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would argue that if the money creation problem is solved, then the reduction of consumption may be achievable by a variety of mechanisms, one of which may be TEQs. However, in the absence of the money problem being fixed, no method of consumption reduction can be made to work, including TEQs.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13956
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: TEQs and imported goods Reply with quote

Shaun Chamberlin wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
If a country unilaterally introduced TEQs or a version thereof, then theoretically a widget produced in that country would be dearer than one imported from a non-TEQ country.

Is there a short answer to that problem?


Hi emordnilap. Apols that I haven't read this thread carefully, as I'm off to Reclaim the Power camp in half an hour, but there's an FAQ on this here, which may answer your question?

I'll check in again when I'm back next week.

Cheers,
Shaun


Thanks Shaun; that answer is sort of what I thought if import tariffs are allowable.

We're all-too-well aware though, these are unlikely in a corporatised (especially post-TTIP etc) world.
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"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
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Shaun Chamberlin



Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 115
Location: London

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: TEQs and imported goods Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Shaun Chamberlin wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
If a country unilaterally introduced TEQs or a version thereof, then theoretically a widget produced in that country would be dearer than one imported from a non-TEQ country.

Is there a short answer to that problem?


Hi emordnilap. Apols that I haven't read this thread carefully, as I'm off to Reclaim the Power camp in half an hour, but there's an FAQ on this here, which may answer your question?

I'll check in again when I'm back next week.

Cheers,
Shaun


Thanks Shaun; that answer is sort of what I thought if import tariffs are allowable.

We're all-too-well aware though, these are unlikely in a corporatised (especially post-TTIP etc) world.


Personally, as per that FAQ and the evidence given there, I think they're rather likely, with or without TEQs. But time will tell.
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