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Corbyn Trains
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18551
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why should we get away from unfunded pension schemes?

We have unfunded baby clinics. What have babies done to contribute to their own costs?

The UK economy jogs along with less than half the population, 31 million, employed, and quite a few of those are part time, with full time only taking 35 - 40 hours out of every 168 in a week.

There are various ways in which the non-working survive. My preference would be for a Basic Citizens Income to play a large part in the transfer of wealth from the in-work to the not-working.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5666
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
The point that I was trying, unsuccessfully it seems, to make was that a major investor, if not the major investor, in companies are the pension schemes of ordinary people. For us to have pensions the companies that the pension schemes invest in have to make a profit. If we are to get away from unfunded pension schemes there have to be profitable companies to invest in. Insurance is the same.

Agree with Ralph.
I'm going to be really dumb here Ken and ask why pensions need to "invest" in the future profit of companies? Why can't pensions just be savings? If the answer goes something along the lines of that in our system of debt based money creation (plus interest, of course), it is not enough to save money due to the inherent devaluing of money in this system. Thus, savings must grow over and above the original capital to account for this. In which case, the problem is not lack of profitable companies, the problem is the way we create money.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8638
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corbyn Trains!

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/picture/2015/aug/25/steve-bell-jeremy-corbyn-momentum-cartoon
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1969

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
I'm going to be really dumb here Ken and ask why pensions need to "invest" in the future profit of companies? Why can't pensions just be savings?

Money has no inherent value.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
I'm going to be really dumb here Ken and ask why pensions need to "invest" in the future profit of companies? Why can't pensions just be savings?

Money has no inherent value.
Really, no shit Sherlock.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1969

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
I'm going to be really dumb here Ken and ask why pensions need to "invest" in the future profit of companies? Why can't pensions just be savings?

Money has no inherent value.
Really, no shit Sherlock.

If you wish to rely for income on something that has no inherent value then that is your choice. I personally would prefer things like property, interests in businesses, commodities or something else. If the savings were held with a state run bank that would be even worse as you would be 100% reliant on the competence of the politicians that control the system. Gold would be better than savings in a state bank.

You asked a question. I gave an answer and you were not happy with it. Such is life.
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6208
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But will these proposed "Corbyn trains" have Pullman restaurants on longer distance routes ?

Initially it seems unlikely that Mr Corbyn would support something like that.
But on the other hand, back in nationalised BR days, far more trains had proper restaurants than is the case today.

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/your-journey/on-board/pullman

This sort of thing Smile Tends to confuse socialists IME, as many would be opposed to something considered elitist and unaffordable, yet on the other hand they must think about protecting the jobs of the restaurant crew.

It does look a bit odd to see left wing trade unionists fighting for the continuation of a rather expensive though excellent service.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
I'm going to be really dumb here Ken and ask why pensions need to "invest" in the future profit of companies? Why can't pensions just be savings?

Money has no inherent value.
Really, no shit Sherlock.

If you wish to rely for income on something that has no inherent value then that is your choice. I personally would prefer things like property, interests in businesses, commodities or something else. If the savings were held with a state run bank that would be even worse as you would be 100% reliant on the competence of the politicians that control the system. Gold would be better than savings in a state bank.

You asked a question. I gave an answer and you were not happy with it. Such is life.
The point of the question which you clearly missed and which I was trying to elicit from another member, was that money that is not backed unambiguously by real world things existing in the here and now but is, instead, conjured out of thin air as debt on the unsustainable hope of perpetual growth, creating jam tomorrow to pay for the debt based promises of today, is the real problem. Thus, the growth-based profitability of companies (growth being the only way that profits in one part of the system are not arithmetically offset by equal and opposite losses elsewhere) as an underlying basis of the health of pension funds is really only a second order issue arising from that first order problem.

Last edited by Little John on Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1969

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been an elected official for 25 years and my experience in terms of both local and national government is that I don't trust the state to run everything. The analysis that believes that profit is inherently wrong is an analysis based upon the wrong set of priorities. To me the priorities have to be quality of sustainable life (including protecting the environment). That includes human rights including protecting the A1P1 ECHR right of property. We do need to look after the weaker members of society, but those who can contribute should be expected to.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8638
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
I have been an elected official for 25 years and my experience in terms of both local and national government is that I don't trust the state to run everything. The analysis that believes that profit is inherently wrong is an analysis based upon the wrong set of priorities.


This is a perfect example of a strawman argument.

Nobody thinks the state should run everything.
Nobody thinks that profit is inherently wrong.

What some people do think is that some things are better run by the state (including the armed forces, a national railway system, a national postal service, and a national health service), and that profit is inherently wrong in some cases, including natural monopolies and essential services.

It is also obviously morally repugnant that private banks are allowed to create money out of nowhere and charge interest on it. This is, in effect, making a profit by doing nothing useful whatsoever, and doing something that other organisations are not allowed to do.
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