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Jihad Watch
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Friends" in general, Biff, in the press and on TV and on Facebook. I wasn't having a go at you in this case.

I would say that Turkey might not be a safe place for some Kurds but for the rest it's no worse than the EU.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been told by someone rather well qualified to know, that migrants often have a very bad time in Turkey, the Turks only having one objective in mind, to extort, one way or another, as much money from migrants as possible. Of course I'm sure the vast majority of Turks are perfectly decent folk but those that aren't produce the dominant conception in the minds of the migrants.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
"Friends" in general, Biff, in the press and on TV and on Facebook. I wasn't having a go at you in this case.

I would say that Turkey might not be a safe place for some Kurds but for the rest it's no worse than the EU.
Does it actually make a difference if Turkey is less safe, relative to the EU, though Ken? That's a hard, cold question, I know. But does it? I can see how it might under the following circumstances; if there was a huge number of migrants/refugees trying to get into Europe. But, where there was a limit in sight, albeit an extremely uncomfortable one. Under such circumstances, I might be persuaded that the moral imperative to keep them as safe as it is possible by bringing them to Europe superseded any other consideration.

However, I do not believe there is an end in sight to this migrant crisis. Indeed, I think that what we are currently witnessing is just the beginning and, in twenty year's time, the numbers on the move today will look like chickenfeed by comparison. As has been argued on here a number of times, ethically that changes everything. If one does not believe there is an end to this long emergency, then all that encouraging such migrants to come here now does is encourage even more and it will not stop until this part of the world is as f***ed as the part of the world they are migrating from. There is nothing morally superior or worthy in that. Nothing at all. It is no more than a form of national suicide and I cannot support that.
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jonny2mad



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This attack may well be in response to Salah Abdeslam being arrested, he was living semi openly in a islamic enclave in belgium. When he was arrested his supporters attacked journalists because it seems killing 130 non believers makes you a hero .
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clv101
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
However, I do not believe there is an end in sight to this migrant crisis. Indeed, I think that what we are currently witnessing is just the beginning and, in twenty year's time, the numbers on the move today will look like chickenfeed by comparison.

Indeed, so any action proposed need to scale. Germany's million can't become Europe's 50 or 100 million in a few decades time. This focues the solution space on the reasons why people move and working to reduce them.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
Little John wrote:
However, I do not believe there is an end in sight to this migrant crisis. Indeed, I think that what we are currently witnessing is just the beginning and, in twenty year's time, the numbers on the move today will look like chickenfeed by comparison.

Indeed, so any action proposed need to scale. Germany's million can't become Europe's 50 or 100 million in a few decades time. This focues the solution space on the reasons why people move and working to reduce them.
Good luck with that (my bold)

Last edited by Little John on Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 823

PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
I have been told by someone rather well qualified to know, that migrants often have a very bad time in Turkey, the Turks only having one objective in mind, to extort, one way or another, as much money from migrants as possible. Of course I'm sure the vast majority of Turks are perfectly decent folk but those that aren't produce the dominant conception in the minds of the migrants.


Most Turks see Iraqi, Syrian, and Afghan migrants as nothing other then lazy folk who should be doing something about the state of their country of origin (ie at least trying sorting it out) instead of just fleeing and becoming a burden on surrounding countries. I've had plenty of Turks say as such.......
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://atimes.com/2016/03/europe-is-a-sitting-duck-for-terrorists/

Quote:
Several thousand trained terrorists reached Europe among more than a million migrants in 2015–4,000 by one account in the UK media, or 1,500 according to NATO Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove in Congressional testimony March 1. In fact, security services have no possible way to verify the bona fides of migrants. The cost of a Syrian passport and passage to Europe is about US $3,000. ISIS and other terrorist organizations can send as many terrorists as they wish to Europe, and a very small cell can shut down a major city.

That leaves the West with unpleasant choices. America has had few large-scale terrorist incidents since Sept. 11, 2001 because it spends $80 billion a year on intelligence operations, including intensive monitoring of Muslims living in the United States, and because it admits very few immigrants from prospective centers of terrorism. American public opinion overwhelming favors less immigration. One poll shows that a majority of Americans support Donald Trump’s proposal for a temporary ban on all Muslim immigration by a margin of 46% to 40% (with 14% undecided). Today’s events are good news for the Trump presidential campaign.

Europe continues to favor mass immigration on humanitarian grounds. Despite the electoral gains of the anti-immigration Allianz für Deutschland earlier this month, more than three-quarters of German voters favored candidates who support Angela Merkel’s immigration policies. The German authorities do not know who the refugees are, and in many cases where they are. According to Germany’s Die Welt, thousands of migrants have left refugee camps; at least 7,000 are missing from reception centers in the state of Brandenburg alone. Very few of these are prospective terrorists, to be sure, but the collapse of controls makes it impossible for security authorities to track prospective terrorists.

This does not necessarily imply that ISIS and other terrorists will conduct a major attack every week. The point is that the frequency of attacks is now a matter of the terrorists’ choice. Mass attacks like the November atrocity in Paris and today’s suicide bombings in Brussels establish ISIS’ credibility. But ISIS does not want to provoke a European reaction; it wants to establish a foothold in Europe so tenable that European authorities will not be able to dislodge it in the future.

Europe has the simple choice of allowing humanitarian disasters to occur on its borders, or losing control of its own security. Germany has already chosen the second alternative, and today’s events will have no effect on Berlin’s attitude towards migrants.


The political and media elites come out with the usual platitudes, but as the above article explains, western Europe is now facing an unprecedented breakdown of security.
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AutomaticEarth



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katie Hopkins being as controversial as ever.....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/katie-hopkins-faces-backlash-over-controversial-tweets-implying-refugees-are-to-blame-for-brussels-a6945926.html
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automaton wrote:
Yes Biff, that list shows very clearly that :

- the very vast majority of terrorist acts so far this year have been motivated by idiotic religious beliefs, and predominately by muslims,

and also that :

- the vast majority of terrorists are in the source countries for the current migrant crisis.

Together these suggest that islam is a big problem, and that there is a possibility that prospective terrorists may be among the migrants.

Hopefully that was your point Biff; hopefully you weren't just trying to belittle the tragedy that's just happened in Brussels by pointing out that terrorism happens in other countries too.

(you might like to actually make your point clearer when you post links in future, as others here have already suggested, so there's no risk of misinterpretation, and so you don't just look like you're trolling)


I wasn't making any point. I was just providing a list, a list that I thought quite useful and worth sharing, as information is often a good basis for rational discussion. I think it outrageous that you should question my motive and suggest that I wanted to belittle the Brussels tragedy. How could you even think that? Has the hate campaign been that successful? Read what I actually write - don't try to over-interpret.

I do think it worth seeing the Brussels attack in the wider global context and that's why the list is helpful. Clearly, our media focus on events nearest to home but I think it's worth being aware of the totality. Of course the list only includes 'terrorist' attacks and so does not include killings by governments such as US drone strikes, Israelis killing Palestinians, Russians dropping bombs and all the rest.

Of course Islam is a big problem (find a religion that doesn't have its problematic aspects). One of the big problems is that we have a lot of migrants fleeing from the actions of people who call themselves Muslims. But that shows why we should not generalise about a religion.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:

One of the big problems is that we have a lot of migrants fleeing from the actions of people who call themselves Muslims.


Jesus wept.

No Biff. They are fleeing from people who ARE muslims. If you call yourself a muslim and justify your actions by quoting the Quran and are trying to establish a global caliphate THEN YOU ARE A F*CKING MUSLIM.

You are the "flabby liberalism" Tony Blair attacked yesterday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35862598

Quote:

Tony Blair has warned against "flabby liberalism" and says there needs to be a tougher centre ground approach to issues such as tackling extremism and responding to the refugee crisis.

The former UK prime minister is planning a global project to prevent extremism through education.

But he warns that too often the West can "be made to feel guilty about itself" and fails to make its case.

"We're in a situation where we have to fight back," said Mr Blair.

"The centre has become flabby and unwilling to take people on. We concede far too much. There's this idea that you're part of an elite if you think in terms of respectful tolerance towards other people. It's ridiculous," Mr Blair told the BBC.


That is you, Biff. Your agenda, all the time, is to try to make people feel guilty about fighting back against Islam. It doesn't work. Instead, it just feeds an endless cycle of unpleasantness on this forum. Everybody is sick of it.
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AutomaticEarth



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As much as I can't stand Piers Morgan, this interview with Donald Trump does make some interesting points:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3504893/PIERS-MORGAN-comes-terror-isn-t-time-started-listening-seriously-Trump.html
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

I wasn't making any point. I was just providing a list, a list that I thought quite useful and worth sharing, as information is often a good basis for rational discussion.


So you're saying you can have a rational discussion without having a point, i.e. without saying anything? I think not.

In that particular post I wasn't saying anything beyond "Here is a list". That's all! If you don't want to look at the list or think it's not a useful list that's fine, it's up to you.

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

Read what I actually write - don't try to over-interpret.


Once again Biff, you didn't actually say anything, as I pointed out in my post. Maybe if you did comment on the links you post, we wouldn't have to guess what particular point it is that you're 'not making'.

Correct. I didn't actually say anything beyond "Here is a list". You didn't need to guess anything. Just look at the list if you want to.

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

I do think it worth seeing the Brussels attack in the wider global context and that's why the list is helpful. ... Of course the list ... does not include .... ...


So.... if you consider those other acts to be equivalent to what gets called terrorism, and as you note they are unsurprisingly not included in the list, then the list you've referred to isn't actually helpful after all, is it? Well not rationally, anyway.

I never said they were equivalent. That's a strawman. The list as I pointed out, is not a comprehensive list of people getting killed violently. It's just a list described as 'terrorism'. Lots of things, some of which I gave as examples, are often not called 'terrorism' though the effect on the victim is very similar; getting killed. If you think the list is not helpful then ignore it.

Automaton wrote:
biffvernon wrote:

Of course Islam is a big problem (find a religion that doesn't have its problematic aspects). One of the big problems is that we have a lot of migrants fleeing from the actions of people who call themselves Muslims. But that shows why we should not generalise about a religion.


On the contrary. The evidence you've provided suggests a correlation between islam and extremism (which causes terrorism), so yes, in this case we should generalise about it, and recognise that people fleeing here can't be allowed to bring their religion with them, or extremism and terrorism will increase here too.

The trouble there is that some people who call themselves Muslims are jolly nice decent folk who wouldn't hurt a fly and others seem determined to blow themselves up and take as many other souls with them. Many of the migrants fall into the first category and they are fleeing from those in the second category. Hence don't generalise.
One might say similar things about, for example, Christians. I know some very nice ones, but others who call themselves Christians have formed the IRA and let off bombs in Belfast and others have donned white cloaks and pointy hats and murdered black folk in America. It's unhelpful to generalise about groups that number a billion and more.
I use the term 'call themselves' Muslim/Christian or whatever because I think it is best to let folk self-define rather than attach labels on others.
I myself, for example, define myself as an atheist Christian because I do not believe in a god and yet I do think that the teachings ascribed to the alleged person known as Jesus Christ are pretty sound. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are not, in my opinion, Christians at all since they approve of killing other people, a policy never encouraged by Jesus.
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Automaton



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:

The trouble there is that some people who call themselves Muslims are jolly nice decent folk who wouldn't hurt a fly and others seem determined to blow themselves up and take as many other souls with them.


No, that is not 'the trouble there', unless you are muslim. Any 'jolly nice decent' muslim should be dumping their religion as fast as possible; if you don't agree, then you (still) haven't read the koran, or even taken a good look at the nasty piece of work muslims consider to be their 'holiest' man.

Just think, if I was in an islamic majority country, I'd probably be killed for saying that; and the jolly nice decent folk there would be just fine with it.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You won't find me defending Islam or any other religion. I think they are all bonkers. But I do know some jolly decent people who call themselves Muslims. If the Koran is as terrible as you say (and I'm happy to accept that along with the fact that there are some pretty terrible things in the Bible, which I have read) then it all goes to demonstrate how utterly bonkers these religions are - you have jolly decent folk who revere an ancient text that is terrible. Bonkers.
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