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Jihad Watch
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18541
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This just popped up on some social media. I've not read the book so don't know if it's true but perhaps someone who is familiar with it can say.


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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The words are in the Quran, but their context is not understood by the people who are sharing the picture.

Of key importance is the word "innocent". Whether a person is innocent or guilty is itself determined by other parts of the Quran, where it is made very clear that refusing to submit to Islam means you are guilty. In other words what this passage actually means is this:

"Whosoever kills a good muslim (a muslim who has not committed any crimes according to Sharia law), it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of a good muslim, it shall be as if he has saved the life of all mankind."

All mankind are, at least potentially, convertible to Islam. However, if they refuse or renounce their faith in Islam then the Quran unequivocally states that they must either pay a tribute or be killed.

And the fact that things like this are passed around on social media by flabby western liberals is part of the problem. Those people do not question the content (you questioned whether it was actually in the Quran, but not whether the meaning was as it appeared). Instead, it is used to prop up existing incorrect beliefs about how Islam is really a peaceful religion. This grand, collective denial of reality is not helping one little bit. All it does is promote ignorance of the real problems and allow mainstream muslims to deny that their religion is the cause of these problems, even though it is very much the cause.

In other words, it is all just a means of continuing the same sorry appeasement instead of standing up to this evil religion.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
You won't find me defending Islam or any other religion. I think they are all bonkers. But I do know some jolly decent people who call themselves Muslims. If the Koran is as terrible as you say (and I'm happy to accept that along with the fact that there are some pretty terrible things in the Bible, which I have read) then it all goes to demonstrate how utterly bonkers these religions are - you have jolly decent folk who revere an ancient text that is terrible. Bonkers.


Anything but admit there is a serious problem with Islam in particular.

You are in denial of reality, Biff. The proof is in the pudding. The world is not full of Christians and Jews trying to blow up everybody who isn't Christian or Jewish.
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: weston super mare

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
This just popped up on some social media. I've not read the book so don't know if it's true but perhaps someone who is familiar with it can say.



next verse quran5/33

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

As undercover said 32 is talking about believers, because someone who doesn't believe is not a innocent person
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jonny2mad



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: weston super mare

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed

Indeed, those who disbelieve - if they should have all that is in the earth and the like of it with it by which to ransom themselves from the punishment of the Day of Resurrection, it will not be accepted from them, and for them is a painful punishment

They will wish to get out of the Fire, but never are they to emerge therefrom, and for them is an enduring punishment.

[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


Shocked and so it goes on http://quran.com/5/33
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a twitter feed to follow if interested in Muslims who think killing can be justified.
https://twitter.com/TheAFMA
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, that's not interesting. It's just another link posted by you in place of a proper response.

The fact that some muslims are not terrorists is not relevant to this discussion, because nobody is saying all muslims are terrorists. Apart from anything else, a lot of people who call themselves muslims just come from a muslim community but in reality are about as Islamic as you are Christian.

What you've posted is an implied strawman, which is absolutely typical of the way you conduct this discussion.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How not to talk about Muslims after a Fringe Terrorist Group attacks.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/how-not-to-talk-about-muslims-after-a-fringe-terrorist-group-attacks.html
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
How not to talk about Muslims after a Fringe Terrorist Group attacks.
http://www.juancole.com/2016/03/how-not-to-talk-about-muslims-after-a-fringe-terrorist-group-attacks.html


Linking to more ignorant nonsense, Biff?

Quote:

1. Stop calling Daesh “the Islamic State.” They are manipulating you. They aren’t a state and they aren’t Islamic. If some fringe cult took over some villages in Mexico and called itself “The Vatican,” then committed terrorism, would journalists blithely say on air “Today, the Vatican killed 39 and injured 200 with a bomb belt”? People in the Middle East hate this small desert fringe, and they term it “Daesh,” not “Islamic.” They should know.


Hmmm. Let's see. What does "Daesh" mean? It is an acronym for "al-Dawla al-Islamiya al-Iraq al-Sham", which translates as "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant".

Oops. Rolling Eyes

Quote:

There is no such thing as “Islamic” terrorism.


Of course not. And there's no such thing as Christian creationism or Jewish expansionism or Tory selfishness and greed. Nope. Saying there's no such thing makes it magically disappear. POOF!

I can't be bothered to read the rest of this nonsense.
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 823

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/12202181/Angry-backlash-against-Croydon-man-who-confonted-Muslim-woman-and-told-her-to-explain-Brussels.html

This woman should have been able to explain Brussels very simply. She is a Muslim, and could have diffused this easily......
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Automaton



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AutomaticEarth wrote:


This woman should have been able to explain Brussels very simply. She is a Muslim, and could have diffused this easily......


There's so much wrong with this nonsense.
Firstly, he was arrested for that tweet? Seriously??? Or was he really just arrested for the 'outrage' it roused against him?
Secondly, other people tweeted parodies of his tweet, such as the one about confronting an Irish woman and asking her to explain Bono.... should that person be arrested too? Or are Irish people not protected to the same degree that muslims are now?
Thirdly, this sort of bollocks actually counts as news now? With everything that's going on out there??

It's ironic really, that news like this will actually turn more people against muslims, rather than improve relations. Sometimes I think the media and the 'powers that be' have a secret, agreed agenda to mess things up as much as possible, while pretending to be the good guys.
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automaton wrote:
AutomaticEarth wrote:


This woman should have been able to explain Brussels very simply. She is a Muslim, and could have diffused this easily......


There's so much wrong with this nonsense.
Firstly, he was arrested for that tweet? Seriously??? Or was he really just arrested for the 'outrage' it roused against him?
Secondly, other people tweeted parodies of his tweet, such as the one about confronting an Irish woman and asking her to explain Bono.... should that person be arrested too? Or are Irish people not protected to the same degree that muslims are now?
Thirdly, this sort of bollocks actually counts as news now? With everything that's going on out there??

It's ironic really, that news like this will actually turn more people against muslims, rather than improve relations. Sometimes I think the media and the 'powers that be' have a secret, agreed agenda to mess things up as much as possible, while pretending to be the good guys.


My point was that she could have just said in effect 'this attack was not done in my name' and that would be the end of it, hopefully.

The fact it caused such as storm is why I posted the story, which, like you say, is pushing things a bit with what is called news nowadays....
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7018
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automaton wrote:

....It's ironic really, that news like this will actually turn more people against muslims, rather than improve relations. Sometimes I think the media and the 'powers that be' have a secret, agreed agenda to mess things up as much as possible, while pretending to be the good guys.
You are not alone in sometimes thinking that. Sometimes, I am reduced to wondering if our authorities really are as unutterably stupid as they appear to be or if a deeper game is being played. I think, in the end, it's probably a bit of both and, at a broader level, it's all just various indications of how our established structures of power are failing.
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Automaton



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
Posts: 164

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AutomaticEarth wrote:

My point was that she could have just said ...


Sorry I wasn't very clear there AutomaticEarth, I wasn't really replying to your comment, just the story itself; I should have quoted the other bit of your post!

I totally agree with your point, and in fact the man involved says that is actually what happened, blaming the limits on twitter as to why he didn't explain it more fully. It doesn't look like it was the woman involved that got him arrested (which is even more ridiculous).

Little John wrote:

Sometimes, I am reduced to wondering if our authorities really are as unutterably stupid as they appear to be or if a deeper game is being played

The simplest explanation is often the right one... Wink
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AutomaticEarth



Joined: 08 Nov 2010
Posts: 823

PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Automaton wrote:
AutomaticEarth wrote:

My point was that she could have just said ...


Sorry I wasn't very clear there AutomaticEarth, I wasn't really replying to your comment, just the story itself; I should have quoted the other bit of your post!

I totally agree with your point, and in fact the man involved says that is actually what happened, blaming the limits on twitter as to why he didn't explain it more fully. It doesn't look like it was the woman involved that got him arrested (which is even more ridiculous).


Nah no worries A, I thought what you said above is what you meant Smile

It does me wonder what stories make it into the print version of the Telegraph compared to what goes into the online version.
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