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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my reading of the Terra Preta research there was a stress on the difference between low temperature charcoal, good, and high temperature charcoal, bad. There is massive evidence that the Terra Preta soils supported a population of several millions in the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS in pre Columbian times. Those soils are still in existence now, are still prolific and date from 1000 years ago so there is physical evidence of the longevity of Terra Preta soils. They do not result from slash and burn which produces high temperature charcoal. There is no reason to think that a properly produced biochar cannot recreate a modern version of a Terra Preta soil with all its longevity and fertility.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Your last sentence is too late, I've done that, but most people you tell won't listen, as they think it will be BAU, which is the way most of us behave if we are honest.


You just have to keep chipping away and lead by example. Even if you only affect the behaviour of a few people they will affect the behaviour of a few more and gradually the word will get around.

Quote:
Despite the knowledge of the damage the human race has been doing for millenia, it's still doing it, and it aint going to stop any time soon, except by a catastrophe. Ours will not be the first civilisation to topple, the problem is, it is in some respects a world wide civilisation, and it's collapse will be a teeny weeny bit bigger than that of, for example the Romans.


Our civilisation will be only the last in a long line of civilisations to topple but it will take a lot longer for the next civilisation to develop as our world wide civilisation has depleted on a world wide basis the easily accessible stored reserves of minerals and fuels. Any new civilisation will have to develop a radically different technology to any of the past as the easily accessible reserves that were essential to our civilisation won't be available in the future 100 million years.

This might have happened in the past for all we know and the evidence has been wiped from the face of the earth by glaciation and sea level rise. There is a theory that there are probably many different planets in the universe that have civilisations but we have not been able to contact any because most planets do not have enough energy stored to develop a civilisation with the technology to leave that planet let alone travel to a distant galaxy.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not convinced about the need for a new technology. People I have read about in the 1930s were still living a healthy life, and things were fine until the white mans food turned up. Things went downhill and damage was done in one generation.
OMG I'm sitting here in the sun while my 52mpg 20 old car gets welded, and a young lass has just got up and is lighting a roll up. Sure is good for a long healthy life, not.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now here we disagree because I am more pessimistic than you!! Very Happy

I don't think that we can say we will be going back to a certain level of past existence because our knowledge levels have distinctly changed. We have lost much of the widespread knowledge of basic metal working which would have been common in the 1930s while our knowledge of organic gardening and permaculture have increased.

In the 30s we would have had several people in every village who could have produced basic and even complicated tools from scrap. Nowadays there might be one blacksmith in each large town! The one machinist that I knew of locally retired about 10 years ago. I'm not sure where I would go locally to get a piece of metal turned into something useful now.

There are half a dozen places where I can go to get my computer fixed but they can only do that while someone within travelling distance is producing the PCBs that they use to replace the faulty ones. That is something that I often do myself anyway.

I am confident that I can produce more food on my acreage, more sustainably, than could a farmer/gardener of the 30s. The cattle I keep are better genetically as recent upgrading has made them hardier and able to survive on rougher grazing than in the past. I obviously don't keep continental commercial breeds! Knowledge of soil fertility and its maintenance has increased over that time as well.

When I say that a new technology will be required I am referring to that time long after the upcoming collapse when a new civilisation is rising. When our recent civilisations arose and went beyond the ability of wood to power them coal could be picked up on the surface and oil and gas was leaking from the ground in many places throughout the globe. There are very few of those places left any more as we have virtually denuded the planet of any mineral resource within a mile of the surface.

Any new civilisation will have to find another power technology to replace wood when they come to the stage of depleting that resource. The coal and oil have gone for a hundred million years or more and the metal ores have been dispersed into new ocean sediments. If the new civilisation rises within that timescale they will have to either find a way of harvesting the sun's energy, find a way of manipulating the earth's minerals at room temperature and pressure as plants and animals, insects in particular, do or find something completely new that hasn't been thought of as yet.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For turned metal items, contact one of the model engineering clubs, or heritage railways round your way.

Coal has gone. What there is is all there will ever be. Once fungi developed the ability to rot plants, that was the end of coal. It might also be the case for oil, but I don't know.

It would be better if the concept of civilisation was abandoned, and the hunter-gatherer model used. Civilisations enevitably collapse, after having wrecked the system they abused.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
For turned metal items, contact one of the model engineering clubs, or heritage railways round your way.

Coal has gone. What there is is all there will ever be. Once fungi developed the ability to rot plants, that was the end of coal. It might also be the case for oil, but I don't know.

It would be better if the concept of civilisation was abandoned, and the hunter-gatherer model used. Civilisations enevitably collapse, after having wrecked the system they abused.


Agree to all of this.

Ken, there's nearly always some kind of blacksmithing and related skills workshops at most 'hippies-in-the-woods' gatherings, amongst the willow weaving and cob building. It's useful to support these events. Plus there's nearly always a bunch of kids running around, who can pick up ideas and things like sponges. A blacksmith will 'appear' from those kids one day.
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