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Shell opens its first UK hydrogen refuelling station
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 816
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydrogen:
http://www.ukhfca.co.uk/
http://www.ukhfca.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/UK-HFCA-Energy-storage-final.pdf

There's obviously still a long way to go, but it's another option....
IMO, worth considering, rather than dismissing.....
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13484
Location: way out west

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Primarily, in what way does hydrogen consumption bring overall energy consumption levels down? Especially, since it takes more energy to harvest hydrogen into a usable form than is contained in the hydrogen itself.

Secondarily, assuming the answer to the above is that is doesn't bring the overall energy consumption down, but it does allow storage and transportation of renewable energy in a way that is not currently possible, then I need this explaining in more detail because I don't currently see how hydrogen does this any better than any other renewable energy storage/transportation method.


Maybe it's in the same way as tar sands don't make sense at all - apart from the end product is a more (currently) usable product than its inputs. Likewise, from an input versus output point of view, a simple one-use battery is a thoroughly stupid idea.

In other words, humans selfishly miss the bigger picture, as usual.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5330
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Hydrogen:
http://www.ukhfca.co.uk/
http://www.ukhfca.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/UK-HFCA-Energy-storage-final.pdf

There's obviously still a long way to go, but it's another option....
IMO, worth considering, rather than dismissing.....

I have lifted this summary directly from that report:

Quote:

Hydrogen has a key role to play in the energy system of the future, where supply (centralised / decentralised / renewable / low carbon / large scale / small scale etc. etc.) and demand are flexibly and responsively interconnected, and the links between previously disparate sectors (heat, power, transport) are optimised.


This is waffle with absolutely no concrete details whatsoever about how hydrogen is to play this "key role".

Quote:
More specifically, the conversion of currently wasted renewable energy to hydrogen via electrolysis offers a range of grid balancing services, as well as helping to deliver decarbonisation across heat, power and transport.


What wasted energy and how is its conversion to hydrogen more energy efficient than other methods of conversion? Again, this is not explained.
Quote:

1TWh of electricity can produce nearly 18,000 tonnes of hydrogen, which is sufficient to fuel 90,000 hydrogen fueled cars each travelling 12,000 miles per year.


This means nothing in the absence of a comparison to the alternatives. Not least of which is to use the electricity directly to power such vehicles.

Quote:
Delivering the right mix of storage solutions, including hydrogen, requires a rigorous review of the full energy system, so that current barriers can be addressed holistically to ensure the most cost effective outcome.


More waffle

In short, the only issue that could possibly make something like the mass adoption of hydrogen fuel make any sense would be if there was an immense amount of energy leakage from elsewhere in the system such that hydrogen provided the basis for storing that energy in a way that would be otherwise extremely difficult to achieve. If so, then I would love to hear about it and specifically the numbers involved.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydrogen can be good storage for people who are not on the electrical grid. That, however, is not mass storage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
Quote:
The energy efficiency of a fuel cell is generally between 4060%, or up to 85% efficient in cogeneration if waste heat is captured for use.


Similar to a thermodynamic cycle really except that you end up with electricity rather than torque.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 7426

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Hydrogen can be good storage for people who are not on the electrical grid. That, however, is not mass storage.


Can it really? Do you know of anyone generating and storing hydrogen off grid? Compression, material science and risk of explosion are three things that seem to make hydrogen a particularly poor energy storage medium for those off-grid.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1730

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are lots of press stories about his happening, but I don't know the details myself.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=off+grid+hydrogen&*

Batteries are probably better, but I don't know for certain.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2196
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is more useful to stop people within the M25 from choking than it is to actually reduce global emissions. Business as usual.
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 5821
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
There are lots of press stories about his happening, but I don't know the details myself.
https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=off+grid+hydrogen&*

Batteries are probably better, but I don't know for certain.


I feel able to state as a certainty that at present batteries are better than hydrogen for domestic scale off grid energy storage.
Lead acid batteries are cheap, simple and sold everywhere, unless abused they are reasonably safe.
The used batteries are recycled via any scrap metal dealer, and the price of lead is an incentive to actually recycle them.

Energy storage via hydrogen requires electrolysis plant, a high pressure compressor safe for hydrogen, a high pressure tank, and a fuel cell. NONE of this equipment is available affordably, and "off the shelf" and suitable for DIY installation. The pressure vessel will require formal testing and certification at significant expense. And you still need a battery as well, though smaller.

Better still is to reduce the need for energy storage in off grid premises by so far as possible using the energy as available.
It is much cheaper to store dirty laundry until energy is plentiful, than to store electricity in a battery bank to work a washing machine on demand.
It is cheaper to run an electric grain mill when energy is plentiful and to store the flour, then store electricity and mill on demand.
It is much cheaper to store heat for space or water heating, than to use stored electricity for heating.
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