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Battery storage

 
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Battery storage Reply with quote

Hi everyone

what are your thoughts on battery storage?

Reasons I ask are as follows:

It will save millions on upgrading the grid.

Efficient to store the energy where it is created

Every dwelling/premises can take advantage of location

Seems lots of R+D such as Tesla etc are ploughing money into it

The market for storage is huge

So, would you advise someone to install PV for the feed in tariffs or hang around for storage developments?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5659
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you suggesting storing off peak-electricity in batteries, and then, via an inverter, consuming it from those batteries during on-peak periods?

If so, I would be interested if anyone on here could provide some numbers on that in terms of its economic feasibility.

My initial hunch is that there would be so much loss involved in the storage and retrieval that it would not work even in immediate economic terms. Or, if it did work in immediate terms, the initial setup cost would mean that you wouldn't be into profit before the batteries needed replacing. So, in effect, it would never pay.

But, I am just guessing
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5659
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha!

I've just had another thought.

Storing off peak electricity in batteries and selling it back to the grid on peak.

That can't be economically possible
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More storing self produced energy and using it later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Powerwall
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Ha!

I've just had another thought.

Storing off peak electricity in batteries and selling it back to the grid on peak.

That can't be economically possible

Perhaps not when the loses in and out of the battery are considered but then it comes down to the differential between the off peak and peak price.
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adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6206
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not economic at present, though of course that may change in the future.

Take a typical "deep cycle" lead acid battery. 12 volt, 100 AH purchase cost 50.
Energy content is about 1.2KWH, and usable energy content avoiding deep discharge is about 0.5KWH.
Presume a battery life of 500 cycles each of 0.5KWH. Over the working life of the battery, a total of 250KWH have been stored for a cost of 50.
Therefore the energy from the battery costs about 20 pence a KWH simply due to battery depreciation, a price broadly comparable to peak grid power.

In practice the energy to charge the battery is NOT free, but must be purchased at the prevailing price for off peak electricity, perhaps about 7 pence a KWH. And to produce 250KWH FROM the battery, perhaps 300KWH must be purchased to put into the system due to losses in the charger, battery and inverter.

So allowing for the cost of the input energy, the output energy is going to cost very roughly 30 pence a KWH, or significantly more than grid power.

And note that the above makes no allowance for the costs of the chargers, inverters, switchgear, installation labour, nor any repairs and maintenance.
Also consider land purchase, premises and maintenance thereof, insurance and business rates.

A complete non starter under present circumstances.

Demand side control, or limited peak generation from fossil fuels starts looking more attractive.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Adam.
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6206
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My example was for a cheapo battery at fleabay prices, much better batteries do of course exist but at much higher prices.
The cost per KWH cycled tends to be broadly similar.

Batteries are virtually unavoidable for emergency backup supplies, for engine starting, and for off grid premises. They are unlikely to make economic sense for grid connected storage under present conditions.

Lithium batteries are improving and may one day be viable, but the economics are doubtful at present.

And for domestic or similar use I would not want a large lithium battery indoors, anymore than I would store petrol indoors.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13968
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Demand side control, or limited peak generation from fossil fuels starts looking more attractive.


adam2, you mean shurely, "Demand side control, or limited peak generation from fossil fuels is still looking more attractive." Wink

Just as in health - particularly cancer - where prevention will always be preferable to treatment (but there's no money to be made) so reduction in demand is stupidly, obviously sensible.

But again, the big boys can't make money out of demand reduction. How silly to even consider such an option. Carry on!
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4264
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
My example was for a cheapo battery at fleabay prices, much better batteries do of course exist but at much higher prices.
The cost per KWH cycled tends to be broadly similar.

Batteries are virtually unavoidable for emergency backup supplies, for engine starting, and for off grid premises. They are unlikely to make economic sense for grid connected storage under present conditions.

Lithium batteries are improving and may one day be viable, but the economics are doubtful at present.

And for domestic or similar use I would not want a large lithium battery indoors, anymore than I would store petrol indoors.

So you would leave you Tesla EV parked outside the garage?
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6206
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would avoid storing petrol indoors, in or adjacent to living accommodation and regard large lithium batteries in a similar way.

I would tolerate either petrol or a lithium battery in an attached garage provided that this was built in accordance with current building regulations WRT fire separation. I would prefer a detached garage though.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5260
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A young man recently sadly killed himself by wrapping his Golf electric around a lamppost at the end of the road I lived in until recently. Car was almost cut in two, electrics remained live but there was no fire.
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