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Timetable set to phase out high-energy light bulbs
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Lurkalot



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny you should mention heat in leds . I've just replaced a number of these bulbs , external floodlights , on a property I work at. On two of the bulbs there was evidence of overheating at the base of the bulb where the electronics are. One had burnt enough to separate the glass from the metal cap and another had heated enough to fuse the cap to the bulb holder so much that as I tried to unscrew it the ceramic bulb holder disintegrated.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All electric lights produce some heat, and in the case of poorly designed or misapplied LED lamps the heat can be sufficient to cause damage.
The heat produced is however unlikely to be of much use when heat is wanted for defrosting frozen fuel systems or the raising of livestock.

The losses in CFL or LED lamps go largely into heating up the light source, this heat then escapes largely by convection into the air.

The losses in a filament lamp consist largely of infra red radiation that radiates in straight lines in all directions, or can be directed by means of a suitable reflector. This heat can be most useful.

If radiated heat is wanted and not illumination, it is preferable to use purpose designed infra red heat lamps for larger wattages, or true carbon filament lamps for smaller wattages (not decorative reproduction carbon lamps)
Ordinary household lamps will serve however, but have a shorter life and may produce excessive glare, especially for animal rearing.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe that we are still having this discussion. As I have said many times before we have used CFLs ever since the early 1980s when we went over, entirely, to Thorn 2D lights as we rewired and extended our house. Yes they do dim for a while just before they require replacing but we have not found it a problem.

I started writing the date on the lamp when it was first fitted as they, mainly, lasted so long that I couldn't remember when they had been fitted. Many lasted two to three years with the most used lasting a year to 18 months at least. If a lamp was too dim we just increased the wattage as it still used less electricity than an incandescent. If we wanted a softer light for living rooms we fitted a warm white bulb and we used cool white in cooking areas and bathrooms just as we do with the LED lights that we are now using to replace the CFLs.

When we built our new house we went over to standard fittings with either E27 or bayonet fitting CFLs. We originally started using IKEA bulbs as we bought most of the fittings from there but found that they didn't last as long as bulbs from named manufacturers. We are gradually working through our stock of CFLs for certain fittings and going on to LED replacements.

The only thing which I find confusing is that the colour temperature for a warm white bulb is 2700K while the cool white bulb is 3600K or thereabouts; the opposite of what you would think.

I find it amazing that there are people out there who still bemoan the passing of incandescent bulbs and will have missed out on a complete technology. If you told them that they couldn't have the latest smart phone they would be up in arms about it. But then it's cool to be seen with the latest phone while no one gives a damn about what light bulbs you use.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your most used lights lasting a year would have been less than 9000 hours even if it was left on all day. I had 2D lights as well. Horrid things IMO.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked out that one of them had done about 15,0000 hrs.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never much liked 2D lamps or fittings designed for them.
They seem particularly vulnerable to early death from frequent switching, the replacement lamps are expensive from high street stores.
Although the lamps come in several wattages, any fitting only accepts a single wattage, no option to fit a lamp of higher or lower wattage for changing needs.

Local authorities love them, especially within social housing, which is hardly a recommendation!

I am a firm believer in use of low energy lamps in most situations, but much prefer standard bayonet or screw in lamp holders, in order that lamps may be easily replaced at little cost, and brighter, or dimmer, or even coloured lamps used if desired.
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can imagine that in common areas the 2D fitting deters theft by the residents.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
I can imagine that in common areas the 2D fitting deters theft by the residents.


The problem is that councils like installing these WITHIN council homes, especially in cooking areas and bathrooms. This is a simple "green tick" often part of a refurbishment to improve energy efficiency.

The bathroom light in my sisters council flat was recently replaced with a 28 watt 2D fitting, with copper/iron control gear that suggests a total energy use of about 32 watts.
The room was formerly lit with an 11 watt LED lamp. So energy use has been nearly tripled.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 28W 2D fitting would seem to be well over sized for a bathroom. We used the 11W version throughout our house with two lamps in the 22 x 11ft living room and had adequate light levels. The lamp was rated at 11W but the whole fitting was rated at 15W.

I'm surprised that the council would go to the expense of fitting a whole 2D fitting rather than just replacing a bulb. It might be a tick box exercise as the Building Regs used to require that a proportion of light fittings in a new house had to be specific low energy type fittings to ensure that the owners could only use low energy bulbs in the fittings. With the demise of incandescent bulbs it doesn't seem necessary now.
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
cubes wrote:
I can imagine that in common areas the 2D fitting deters theft by the residents.


The problem is that councils like installing these WITHIN council homes, especially in cooking areas and bathrooms. This is a simple "green tick" often part of a refurbishment to improve energy efficiency.

The bathroom light in my sisters council flat was recently replaced with a 28 watt 2D fitting, with copper/iron control gear that suggests a total energy use of about 32 watts.
The room was formerly lit with an 11 watt LED lamp. So energy use has been nearly tripled.


Ah, ok. Thought it was just the common areas.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another type of energy wasting lamp is to be banned*from September this year.
Mainly the mains voltage lamps that contain a small halogen lamp within an outer glass bulb.
These lamps have been widely touted as "green" or "energy saving" and they are indeed slightly better than ordinary non halogen lamps of similar output.
Still much worse than modern CFL or LED lamps though, and I see no justification for continued sales.

Some other types of similarly low efficiency halogen lamps will also be affected, the ban* refers to the efficiency of the lamp, not the style or design.

*As with previous bans, it is manufacture or import that will be prohibited. Existing stocks may be sold and used without concern.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another view, what are the potential physiological problems caused by LEDS?

This is a video by a reserarcher who has done some work on the effects of LED lights on health. This will give the backgroung for his other work which is also on youtube. Another case with energy saving of no free lunches.

https://youtu.be/KAo1H4152ZI
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone ever do any work on the health problems with incandescents? SAD for instance? Or even on gas or oil lamps? CO poisoning?

Perhaps anything other than sun light is less good for us.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside;

The majority of lighting is used in domestic settings.

The majority of the time when lighting is used it is dark.

The time of the year when it is most dark is in the winter.

Winter is the time when some form of domestic heating is used the most.

Most domestic heating, nowadays, is thermostatically controlled.

All of the above being the case, the lowered "excess" heat that is being generated by more "efficient" lighting as compared to that generated by "less efficient" lighting is, to some extent, going to be offset by heating systems consequently having to take up the thermal slack.

Now, I am guessing one retort to the above is that the heat involved is so minimal as to be negligible in terms of the extra energy load on domestic heating systems.

Which, if true, begs the question of why it was worth all the bother of trying to save this "negligible" amount of energy given out as heat from our lighting systems?
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not certain about the majority of lighting being used in homes, a great deal is used in workplaces. Shops in particular use vast amounts.

But yes the waste heat from domestic lighting does reduce the fuel used for heating, but not by much.
Lights are often in, on, or near the ceiling and waste heat that high up is far less useful than at lower levels.
Also electricity at perhaps 15 pence a unit is often displacing gas at 5 pence a unit, or oil, coal, or wood, all of which are cheaper than electricity.

Electricity wasted by low efficiency lighting is of course a complete waste outside of the heating season and may contribute to making a home uncomfortably hot. Might even result in air conditioning being needed, and will certainly increase the running cost of any existing air conditioning.
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