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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2160

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't the original report, but is relevant
https://news.un.org/en/story/2017/11/570192-both-isil-and-syrian-government-responsible-use-chemical-weapons-un-security
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 6224
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oneother thing, seeing as I am late setting off:

If we just bombed “Chemical weapons factories” in Syria:

1) why was the existence of such “factories” never reported before - to the UN, the OPCW or the public?

2) Why are there not dead people from the chemicals thus dispersed for a thousand miles ( including in Israel)?

As with the Skripal farce - bullshit from start to finish. Thus, all of the details that may or may not be arguable underneath that, are irrelevant at best, and a [deliberate] distraction at worst.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 7864

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
clv101 wrote:
Let's both, and anyone else, make a point of listening to Monday's (16th April) 8:10 interview of Radio 4's Today and see if the politician interviewed (assuming it is a politician) manages to give wholly straight, honest answers without obfuscation or omission of significant points.

The way of resolving this is for someone to do a transcript.

Assuming you are referring to Diane Abbot's interview I think her problem is being clear on what her party's current position is on armed conflict.


I'm referring to tomorrow's interview (easy way to do a random sample).
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4859
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The members here do not have access to any classified material the governments have gathered by agents in the field. Those that don't trust their government will assume it will cover up facts that go against the decision that was made and those with more confidence in government will assume that the classified information supported the decision.
But for or against nobody here can assert with any certainty that their position on the matter is correct.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3775

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Historically governments have used “intelligence” often distorted to further their agenda. We have only to go back to cases, 9-11 and Iraq, oh and Vietnam, to name but three here the facts were somewhat different from the contemporary government stories.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
I'm referring to tomorrow's interview (easy way to do a random sample).

OK. Not much statistical reliability, but a good starting position.

Someone needs to do a transcript.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A job for you then. That way you will not have to deal with bias and mis-reporting.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
A job for you then. That way you will not have to deal with bias and mis-reporting.

Burden of proof. Those who wish to prove an assertion need to adduce evidence to prove it.

woodburner wrote:
Laughing Laughing Science, page 1, basic rules:

You can’t prove a negative.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop allowing the sad little joker to derail this debate folks.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2160

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Stop allowing the sad little joker to derail this debate folks.

Are you capable of making points where you disagree with someone without being abusive?
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Mr. Fox



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 657
Location: In the Dark - looking for my socks

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
I'm referring to tomorrow's interview (easy way to do a random sample).


Honestly, Chris... It's not worth the effort. Very Happy

Not only does he not know what day it is, but he didn't even notice Diane Abbott referring to 'the poison gas attack in Salisbury'. Embarassed Pitiful clown. Very Happy

If you do still fancy pulling tomorrow's interview apart, I'll play - maybe on the Meta News thread (to avoid this one turning into the 'John Hemming show' Wink )?

Alternatively, there's always UNSC meetings to look at (often with transcripts) - sometimes worth it just to see WTF UK Ambassador Karen Pierce is wearing today... how's your Russian? Smile
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Fox wrote:
Not only does he not know what day it is,

Mr. Fox wrote:
Pitiful clown. Very Happy


How does this add to rational debate?
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4859
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Historically governments have used “intelligence” often distorted to further their agenda. We have only to go back to cases, 9-11 and Iraq, oh and Vietnam, to name but three here the facts were somewhat different from the contemporary government stories.

You are confusing propaganda and intelligence. Yes sometimes governments will tell the public that the intelligence says something opposite from what it actually contains and if you are a government doubter, as you obviously are, you will always assume that the propaganda is replete with made up phony "intelligence".
Sometimes the governments tell the public a lie to confuse the enemy about how much they know and how they know it.
To keep the Nazis unaware of our cracking their codes the allies had to let cities be bombed without any prior warning from the front office. You couldn't save a few civilians if that meant losing the war.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps more liker Pearl Harbour. Just sit it out, then we’ll have a good excuse to start a major conflict. It’s a pity politicians exist. They seem to be followed around by trouble.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Fisk is a sensible guy (well, if you call travelling to Douma sensible) and he seems suggested, from a first hand account, that no chemical weapon attack took place. The egg-on-face if it ever becomes widely accepted would be quite remarkable.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/04/robert-fisk-reports-head-of-douma-clinic-denies-chemical-weapons-attack/

Further comment from a journalist on the ground:
https://youtu.be/lSXwG-901yU
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