PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

[PVpost] Energy storage - it's no energy source.

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Hydrogen
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:13 pm    Post subject: [PVpost] Energy storage - it's no energy source. Reply with quote

This is an edited re-post of a topic that existed before
the forums were hit by a virus in June 2005. Please feel free to add
comments at the end.



The only real use for hydrogen, if it's embraced, is as an energy battery.
Batteries are very energy inefficient, and so is hydrogen. The EROEI is negative, so it's a net energy loser, not a source. However, it can be used to store energy captured via other means, like PV or wind for example.


Last edited by PVPoster1 on Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great article on why the hydrogen economy is a false start.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/cgi-bin/MasterPFP.cgi?doc=http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/081803_hydrogen_answers.html

I'm going to a lecture by Rifkin, author of the hydrogen economy, and I shall try to raise some of these points with him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Such is the case with your unfortunate infomercial on hydrogen (Science and Technology, Hydrogen Cars Are Almost Here, But There are still serious problems to solve, such as: Where will drivers fuel up? BusinessWeek, January 24, 2005 pp. 56). This article reflects the contemporary pop culture mantra that pollution free hydrogen fuels will save the environment, a belief that ignores the pollution penalty of hydrogen production, distribution and consumption. It also obscures hydrogen's primary disadvantage: hydrogen is an energy intensive alternative to motor fuels derived from oil.


http://www.energybulletin.net/4243.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some very precious metals like platinum are required for hydrogen fuel cells.
There are currently 700million vehicles on the planet. Platinum takes energy (oil) to extract. Even if we extracted all of our platinum, we will have in no way come close to 700 million hydrogen fueled cars!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PVPoster1



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

http://www.hydrogen.co.uk

which looks at the possibility of changing to a hydrogen economy?


Peter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sam172



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 138
Location: Plymouth, UK

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm still reading through this site - but I'm somewhat dubious, especially as they pulled out the old:

"The hydrogen energy system could meet all the world's energy needs forever"

quote
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fifthcolumn



Joined: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 2525

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is the "hydrogen economy" is a misnomer.

It's the ELECTRICITY economy and it's already here.

The question really is this:
Do we waste the energy in electricity by converting it to hydrogen by splitting water or something else (losing some energy in the process) and then burning it again (losing some heat in the process) to make electricity AGAIN?!?! OR
do we store it in a MUCH MORE EFFICIENT battery?

In both cases the car at the end of the day is an electric car. Why bother with a hydrogen fuel cell.

What a joke hydrogen is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12469
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couldn't agree more. A recent ODAC piece on Hydrogen ended with this:

David Strahan, a trustee of ODAC, and the author of The Last Oil Shock: A Survival Guide to the Imminent Extinction of Petroleum Man wrote:
The debate about hydrogen normally focuses on short term obstacles such as the cost of fuel cells or the lack of a fuel distribution infrastructure. But the real issue is how to produce enough of the fuel itself.

Most hydrogen today is stripped out of natural gas, a process which emits carbon dioxide ? rather defeating the climate claims of the proponents of the so-called hydrogen economy. To produce the gas cleanly and in bulk you must electrolyze water, which requires huge amounts of power. (To give an idea of scale, two chlorine plants operated in Cheshire by Ineos Chlor, which produce the chemical by electrolyzing salt water, consume more electricity than the entire city of Liverpool).

Then, to reduce the hydrogen gas to a manageable volume, it must either be chilled to -160C to become liquid, or must be compressed, both of which processes require more energy.
Because of all this, to run Britain?s road transport on cleanly generated hydrogen would require a massive expansion of electricity generating capacity: 42 Sizewell B nuclear power stations (we currently have the equivalent of 10); solar panels covering every inch of Lincolnshire; or a wind farm covering the either northwest region of England. You would be much better off developing electric vehicles, where the energy losses between wind turbine and tarmac are massively smaller. It is mystifying therefore that so many apparently intelligent people remain transfixed by the hydrogen mirage.

_________________
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
The Price of Time
BLOG
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adam2
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 6210
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Batteries are not that inefficient, large lead acid batteries have an efficiency of 80/85% which compares favourably with hydrogen storage.

Unless DC current at battery voltage is required, there will be additional losses in the inverter that produces line voltage AC from the battery, however fuel cells also produce low voltage DC and would be suject to the same losses.

Fuel cells are already just about viable for small scale portable or mobile energy needs.(cost and efficiency is often secondary in such applications)

The very large scale use of fuel cells appears less likely due to the costs and losses.
Better in most cases to use, hydroelectric power, demand management, or limited peak load use of oil/gas to balance electricity demand/supply.
_________________
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Hydrogen All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group