PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

All new, all improved Hydrogen
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Hydrogen
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
PowerSwitchJames



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 929
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: All new, all improved Hydrogen Reply with quote

Quote:
It seems too good to be true: a new source of near-limitless power that costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts of water as its fuel and produces next to no waste. If that does not sound radical enough, how about this: the principle behind the source turns modern physics on its head.

Randell Mills, a Harvard University medic who also studied electrical engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims to have built a prototype power source that generates up to 1,000 times more heat than conventional fuel. Independent scientists claim to have verified the experiments and Dr Mills says that his company, Blacklight Power, has tens of millions of dollars in investment lined up to bring the idea to market. And he claims to be just months away from unveiling his creation.

The problem is that according to the rules of quantum mechanics, the physics that governs the behaviour of atoms, the idea is theoretically impossible. "Physicists are quite conservative. It's not easy to convince them to change a theory that is accepted for 50 to 60 years. I don't think [Mills's] theory should be supported," said Jan Naudts, a theoretical physicist at the University of Antwerp.

What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's claim that he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of all the atoms, with just a single proton circled by one electron. In his "hydrino", the electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, and the formation of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases huge amounts of energy.

This is scientific heresy. According to quantum mechanics, electrons can only exist in an atom in strictly defined orbits, and the shortest distance allowed between the proton and electron in hydrogen is fixed. The two particles are simply not allowed to get any closer.

According to Dr Mills, there can be only one explanation: quantum mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of testing. We've got 50 independent validation reports, we've got 65 peer-reviewed journal articles," he said. "We ran into this theoretical resistance and there are some vested interests here. People are very strong and fervent protectors of this [quantum] theory that they use."

Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if this were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that wasn't real."

But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as far as that goes."

Dr Mills's idea goes against almost a century of thinking. When scientists developed the theory of quantum mechanics they described a world where measuring the exact position or energy of a particle was impossible and where the laws of classical physics had no effect. The theory has been hailed as one of the 20th century's greatest achievements.

But it is an achievement Dr Mills thinks is flawed. He turned back to earlier classical physics to develop a theory which, unlike quantum mechanics, allows an electron to move much closer to the proton at the heart of a hydrogen atom and, in doing so, release the substantial amounts of energy he seeks to exploit. Dr Mills's theory, known as classical quantum mechanics and published in the journal Physics Essays in 2003, has been criticised most publicly by Andreas Rathke of the European Space Agency. In a damning critique published recently in the New Journal of Physics, he argued that Dr Mills's theory was the result of mathematical mistakes.

Dr Mills argues that there are plenty of flaws in Dr Rathke's critique. "His paper's riddled with mistakes. We've had other physicists contact him and say this is embarrassing to the journal and [Dr Rathke] won't respond," said Dr Mills.

While the theoretical tangle is unlikely to resolve itself soon, those wanting to exploit the technology are pushing ahead. "We would like to understand it from an academic standpoint and then we would like to be able to use the implications to actually produce energy products," said Prof Maas. "The companies that are lining up behind this are household names."

Dr Mills will not go into details of who is investing in his research but rumours suggest a range of US power companies. It is well known also that Nasa's institute of advanced concepts has funded research into finding a way of using Blacklight's technology to power rockets.

According to Prof Maas, the first product built with Blacklight's technology, which will be available in as little as four years, will be a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, bigger furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce electricity.

In a recent economic forecast, Prof Maas calculated that hydrino energy would cost around 1.2 cents (0.7p) per kilowatt hour. This compares to an average of 5 cents per kWh for coal and 6 cents for nuclear energy.

"If it's wrong, it will be proven wrong," said Kert Davies, research director of Greenpeace USA. "But if it's right, it is so important that all else falls away. It has the potential to solve our dependence on oil. Our stance is of cautious optimism."


http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,,1627657,00.html
_________________
www.PowerSwitch.org.uk

'Being green is not what you think, it is what you do.'
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GD



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1099
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, it certainly does go against everything I've been taught.

Even if the stated physics of the hydrino is true, where do they come from? (Processing 2H? H2O?)

Digging around in here: www.hydrino.org

Quote:
Mills' equation of the hydrogen atom predicts the stability of atoms with energy levels that correspond to 1/n electron energies. Such atoms are reduced in size and energy with respect to the ground state (n=1) hydrogen atom (thus the popular term "shrunken hydrogen").

These 1/n states cannot be reached by normal photon absorption/emission processes, but may be generated by collisions with a catalyst which can resonantly absorb a quantum of energy corresponding to a 1/n transition. The catalytic atom is excited to its next energy level and the hydrogen atom is "disproportionated" into a hydrino. Energy may be released as system heat or radiation depending on the catalysts used.

A vast amount of energy can be generated from a power generator which uses this process. In terms of energy density this process is somewhere in between the best chemical fuels and fusion, but with harmless by-products and using ordinary water as fuel.


The wikipedia entry has a "gentle" explanation, including some pretty serious debunking.

Hmm, I don't know... I'm not qualified either way - this would need a dedicated Physicist, preferably PhD to tackle.

Question
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MacG



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2863
Location: Scandinavia

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seem to be in the same league as abiotic oil and cold fusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrino

Since it's a proposed chemical reaction, it must involve bulk quantities of hydrogen, and I wonder what the residues would look like? Could the hydrino be moved back to H+ or is it a one-way thing?

In addition, if it was real, it would mean that we really could screw this earth once and for all. Look what we have done using just fossile energy, and imagine what we would be able to achieve with limitless energy!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johnhemming



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perhaps OM Energy Ltd should invest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
skeptik



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2969
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm.

Theres obviously serious money involved here. This isnt just yer average internet 'new energy' scam.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/business.shtml

And they're churning out papers at a rate of knots..

http://www.blacklightpower.com/new.shtml

this is all way beyond me. Somebody with a PhD level interest in Quantum Mechanics needs to offer an opinion on all this.

------------------


From the Guardian article...

"According to Prof Maas, the first product built with Blacklight's technology, which will be available in as little as four years, will be a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, bigger furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce electricity.

In a recent economic forecast, Prof Maas calculated that hydrino energy would cost around 1.2 cents (0.7p) per kilowatt hour. This compares to an average of 5 cents per kWh for coal and 6 cents for nuclear energy.

"If it's wrong, it will be proven wrong," said Kert Davies, research director of Greenpeace USA. "But if it's right, it is so important that all else falls away. It has the potential to solve our dependence on oil. Our stance is of cautious optimism."


--------------------
From the Wiki article

"Researchers at other well-known government labs also say they are afraid to speak on record about their interest in Mills's work"

Which says a lot about the sad state of science in the USA. Don't rock the boat boys, the big energy co's might not like it. Vested interest rools ok..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And he claims to be just months away from unveiling his creation.


Actions speak louder than words. We just have to wait till we see it

Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
MacG



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2863
Location: Scandinavia

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skeptik wrote:
Theres obviously serious money involved here. This isnt just yer average internet 'new energy' scam.


Nops. Not average. Rather "Top Level"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikepepler
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2863
Location: Rye, UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This all sounds rather trange, but I'm not in a position to judge it. However, if it does work, and we go around converting hydrogen into hydrinos, won't that screw the planet up? We're told that hydrinos display novel cemical properties, and it's suggested that they can form "dark matter". So... are we going to strip the hydrogen out of the ocean and turn it all into something weird? What about all the spare oxygen, which I assume doesn't recombine to form water with hydrinos?

If this stuff is true it sounds like an even bigger Pandora's Box than fission/fusion have proved to be....
_________________
Mike

"Deal with reality or reality will deal with you"
Dr Colin Campbell

http://peplers.blogspot.com
http://peakoilupdate.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
skeptik



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2969
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MacG wrote:
skeptik wrote:
Theres obviously serious money involved here. This isnt just yer average internet 'new energy' scam.


Nops. Not average. Rather "Top Level"


Yes. Absolutely top notch. If this is a scam Dr. Mills is to be congratulated. To have conned both a major electricity utility company , NASA and a number of other investors out of $25 million shows real enterprise.

I cant decide. Having Googled round this a bit it would appear that Dr. Mills company has been in existence since 1992 and has yet to produce a prototype of anything, which is not very encouraging.

For now this goes in the 'Dont Know' mental pigeonhole with a small post it note saying 'beware: possibly a scam' attached. File under wait and see.

Quote:
This all sounds rather trange, but I'm not in a position to judge it. However, if it does work, and we go around converting hydrogen into hydrinos, won't that screw the planet up?

Aparently not. Free hydrinos (if they exist) are said to be able to slip through solids with even more facility than Hydrogen or helium, and then as they are so light, rise up through the atmosphere and escape into outer space, much in the same way that ordinary hydrogen does. Hydrogen and helium are wandering off into space all the time. Earth isnt massive enough to retain the lightest elements in its atmosphere.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cycloloco



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 192
Location: London, UK.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: The new, all improved Hydrogen Reply with quote

Taking this seriously I wondered why we have to wait for the Guardian to cover it. There is nothing in Scientific American. New Scientist has one item on hydrino and one item on hydrinos, neither being a full article. This virtually rewrites the whole of 20th century quantum mechanics with links to relativity and cosmology. It looks as if it is too big for mainstream scientists to get their heads round quickly.

Their website advertises a book of over 1000 pages.
For a biography of the author see:
http://mysite.verizon.net/~userwho/aquarian/millsbio.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mikepepler
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2863
Location: Rye, UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skeptik wrote:

Quote:
This all sounds rather trange, but I'm not in a position to judge it. However, if it does work, and we go around converting hydrogen into hydrinos, won't that screw the planet up?

Aparently not. Free hydrinos (if they exist) are said to be able to slip through solids with even more facility than Hydrogen or helium, and then as they are so light, rise up through the atmosphere and escape into outer space, much in the same way that ordinary hydrogen does. Hydrogen and helium are wandering off into space all the time. Earth isnt massive enough to retain the lightest elements in its atmosphere.

I see, but that's not quite what I meant. What if we're getting the hydrogen to make hydrinos from the sea, and the hydrinos are floating off into space - doesn't that mean we are increasing the relative amount of free oxygen on earth, and would run day run out of water? I realise the timescales would be huge, but it does still seem a little short-sighted...

Anyway, I remain unconvinced about the whole thing at the moment, so maybe it's not a problem. Smile
_________________
Mike

"Deal with reality or reality will deal with you"
Dr Colin Campbell

http://peplers.blogspot.com
http://peakoilupdate.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
revdode



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Hungary

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mikepepler"]
skeptik wrote:

I see, but that's not quite what I meant. What if we're getting the hydrogen to make hydrinos from the sea, and the hydrinos are floating off into space - doesn't that mean we are increasing the relative amount of free oxygen on earth, and would run day run out of water? I realise the timescales would be huge, but it does still seem a little short-sighted...


Maybe I'm missing the point here but doesnt this still involve the production of hydrogen first, where does it come from, where does the energy come to produce it. Are they saying that the Hydrogen/Hydrino process will release enough energy to split the hydrogen out of water and then some?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Joe



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 596
Location: Leeds

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

revdode wrote:
Maybe I'm missing the point here but doesnt this still involve the production of hydrogen first, where does it come from, where does the energy come to produce it. Are they saying that the Hydrogen/Hydrino process will release enough energy to split the hydrogen out of water and then some?


This may have potential as a low energy method of cracking water:

Quote:
Hydrogen is also produced by natural photosynthesis. Biologists know that certain species of green algae and photosynthetic bacteria can make hydrogen using sunlight. Engineers are currently working on adapting this process by growing algae in bioreactors. As of yet, though, the conversion efficiency of sunlight to hydrogen is only about one percent. At that rate, the land and water requirements for growing algae would be prohibitive.

A green option that avoids the space problem is fermentation, which works by introducing hydrogen-producing bacteria-like Clostridia into water spiked with organic matter for it to feed on.

A team headed by Bruce Logan, Kappe professor of environmental engineering and director of the Penn State Hydrogen Energy Center, has successfully demonstrated fermentation using wastewater samples from several Pennsylvania food-processing plants. For their catalyst, the Logan team used ordinary garden soil that had been heat-treated to kill all the bacteria it contained except hydrogen-producing spores. When the spores were introduced to the wastewater, they began to grow, feeding on the organic material in the water and producing a biogas of 60 percent hydrogen in the headspace of the test flasks. In a second stage, Logan's students added another type of bacteria to the same water, which generated methane while consuming the leftovers.

"Using this continuous fermentation process, we can strip nearly all of the energy out of the wastewater," said Steven Van Ginkel, the doctoral student who conducted the tests. In addition, the fermentation process acts as wastewater treatment, substantially removing the need for costly aeration, Logan says.

The method holds promise, he notes, but is not yet efficient. Penn State colleagues John Regan in civil engineering and Mark Guiltinan in horticulture have embarked with Logan on a project to genetically engineer a Clostridium acetobutylicum strain that will produce more hydrogen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
skeptik



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2969
Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MacG wrote:

Since it's a proposed chemical reaction, it must involve bulk quantities of hydrogen, and I wonder what the residues would look like? Could the hydrino be moved back to H+ or is it a one-way thing?


Why would you want to move it back? the whole point of the process is to drop the electron down to an 'impossible' orbital below normal ground state and release energy in the process. Reverting back to normal Hydrogen would require an energy input. I dont think there are any 'residues' as such, other than oxygen.

MacG wrote:

In addition, if it was real, it would mean that we really could screw this earth once and for all. Look what we have done using just fossile energy, and imagine what we would be able to achieve with limitless energy!


Buwhaaahahahaha !!! Limitless energy!! I love it.... "Set the controls for Eroticon Six"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MacG



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2863
Location: Scandinavia

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skeptik wrote:
Why would you want to move it back? the whole point of the process is to drop the electron down to an 'impossible' orbital below normal ground state and release energy in the process. Reverting back to normal Hydrogen would require an energy input. I dont think there are any 'residues' as such, other than oxygen.


Well, I just dont like the thought of removing an element forever. Altough hydrogen IS very abundant though...

The proposed "hydrino" must have some physical shape. It's a non-nuclear reaction and the proton and the electron must be somewhere. I'm just curious where they would be and what they would look like.

Naaah.. Its a big "wait and see" all of it, but the needle on my prank-o-meter is a fair bit up the scale...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Hydrogen All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group