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All new, all improved Hydrogen
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MacG wrote:
The proposed "hydrino" must have some physical shape. It's a non-nuclear reaction and the proton and the electron must be somewhere. I'm just curious where they would be and what they would look like.
I think the challenge is that what's proposed doesn?t fit with the current understanding of particle physics and quantum mechanics. This makes it sound as impossible to us as nuclear fission or fusion would have sounded to Joseph Thompson back in 1898 whilst developing the 'plum pudding' model of the atom. Thompson was a leading physicist of the time but working before Plank had proposed quantisation, Einstein had proposed the photon and wave particle duality and a full decade before Rutherford had even discovered atoms have a tiny, dense, positive nucleus.

I think it's unwise to dismiss out of hand something that doesn't fit the accepted understanding, especially anything to do with quantum mechanics and particles physics where there is still a lot we don't understand and discoveries are still being made today.

I've asked a friend who I studied physics with who is now a university lecturer of particle physics to comment on this both technically I think more importantly how something like this is likely to be received by the scientific community if there is some truth behind it.
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Cycloloco



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 192
Location: London, UK.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skeptik wrote:


Maybe I'm missing the point here but doesn't this still involve the production of hydrogen first, where does it come from, where does the energy come to produce it. Are they saying that the Hydrogen/Hydrino process will release enough energy to split the hydrogen out of water and then some?


The proposers don't care where the hydrogen comes from because their process generates excess heat and light. They suggest using a bit of the excess to generate hydrogen by electrolysis of water. They don't use the expression EROEI but they are suggesting possible EROEI of over 100.

Also there is no case of other energy companies trying to suppress this. They are helping to finance it. The proposers suggest it could run on a very small or very large scale. In particular they suggest the heat and excess hydrogen from electrolysis could be used instead of natural gas to get the oil out of tar sands and oil shales. They don't mention global waming. If Peak Oil is critical humans are in a mess. If this power source works then most species on Earth are in a mess.

This doesn't look like a scam. They offer lots of info in a 1000 page book and lots of refereed papers. It has been laboratory scale so far and now they are doing larger scale development.
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MacG



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cycloloco wrote:
This doesn't look like a scam.


That is exactly the case with the good ones! They don't look like scams. That's why so many people fall for them.

I think that there is a certain disconnect between the content of the published papers and the press material.

I'm not dismissing anything, just assuming a cautionary "Wait and see" attitude.
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skeptik



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MacG wrote:
Cycloloco wrote:
This doesn't look like a scam.


That is exactly the case with the good ones! They don't look like scams. That's why so many people fall for them.


Fusion Facts, January 1992 wrote:

BLACKLIGHT POWER, INC. The FIRST Commercialization of a New-Energy Device!

"On April 26, 1989, Dr. Mills had filed a patent for 'Energy/Matter Conversion Methods and Structures.' Dr. Mills states, '...we scaled it up greater than a factor of a thousand and we have right now a cell running that is a commercial demonstration of this technology. We're pushing right now ... we have a contract we're pursuing that will give us a one kilowatt -- a one thousand watt home heating unit within four months. We have the electrochemical power cell -- it is running. It has the capacity of putting out a thousand watts. And we are waiting for the heat exchanger unit to interface with that [power cell] and we will have a prototype of a home heating unit.'"

'We congratulate Dr. Randell L. Mills for being the first to get a new-energy technology to market. For further information see the Website."

source:http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_6_8_1.html



The Guardian, Nov 4, 2005 wrote:
According to Prof Maas, the first product built with Blacklight's technology, which will be available in as little as four years, will be a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, bigger furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce electricity.



This is a major red flag. The big claims - the train which never quite arrives at the station, always for very good reasons that are never the fault of the inventor. It always needs just that bit more time and money to finish off the development phase, to overcome those final unexpected little hiccups...

Apart from producing loads of papers covering life the universe and everything in Physics, Blacklight power appears not to have advanced an inch since 1989 in the commercialisation of its discovery. This despite what appears to be a large well funded research facility.

The 'new' energy field is full of bullshit merchants.Their major abilities are talking the hind leg off a donky and churning out endless reems of inpenetrable 'theory' and 'documentation'. rather than producing any 'new' energy.

Not worth thinking about unless you read that Comet, Homebase et al. are going to start selling Blacklight heaters.
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wayne72



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK lets assume this is a reality, then how do we maintain our roads asphalt, how do we build enough Hydrogen cars, how do we build Hydrogen stations to fuel our Hydrogen cars, can we create Hydrogen based fertilisers and pestisides, what happens to all that water vapour that enters the atmosphere, can it replace petroleum based medicines, will it just be used to turn the heavy oils (tar sands etc.) in usable cheap forms of energy, there are lots more questions.

Could a Hydrogen revolution create a bigger problem than it solves, i.e. Enviroinment? If this proves a correct reality, then i'm not convinced its going to save us. I think on the same lines as Cycloloco, if this Power Source is a reality (which it seems to have good credentials, then every specie could be skrewed Mad )
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DamianB
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wayne

Please read the posts already made here on hydrogen and you'll have more info with which to ask your questions. Thanks.
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fishertrop



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 859
Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with clv101 and others, we shouldn't dissmiss this - or any other - potentionally revolutionary idea out of hand. Many key breakthroughs in the past of come from left-field and rocked the establishment (a bit like PO is doing now....).

On the whole, I think ANY solution to PO that allows things to carry on more or less as they are now will be worse in the long term than the worst things PO might bring, since it would make everyone think "there is nothing wrong, go back to the tv show...".

Easy energy allows easy population growth and easy over-use and/or destruction of <insert any number of chosen factors here>, the one and only good thing about PO is that it might begin the sloooow changes needed to recognise and reverse these trends - cheap energy from this new device or any other will ultimately do the opposite.

With my skepitcal hat on, every time anyone has threatened an energy breakthrough the existing players have done whatever was needed to keep it off the market. Are you telling me Exxon wouldn't have paid these guys 2.5bn dollars (or indeed, pick-a-number) to own 100% of this invention if it were legit?

In the energy world either the big players own the "new thing" so they can sell it or they own it so they can lock it in a safe. If they can go to war in Iraq for oil they can do whatever to keep a paradigm-shifting invention off the market.

Or what, Lee Raymond et al are just going to stand by while their bread-and-butter goes down the pan?

We'll just have to wait and see....
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wayne72



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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Location: Barnsley

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DamianB wrote:
Wayne

Please read the posts already made here on hydrogen and you'll have more info with which to ask your questions. Thanks.


Hi Damien, I may be seeing this on a differnet plane right now, but why are you seem to be attacking me? both through posts and PM's. I understand we seem to have got off on the wrong foot. Our views are initially the same, "Peak Oil", i'm more pessimissitic than you. I may be more Accademically and Literacy challenged than you, this is my assumption.

Of course i've read the thread. Other posts seem to ask questions already asked. So why can't I? They are questions more out of fear, of what this new techno could bring, plus questions to show my own personal expression.

I found this site following a phone call to Hallam FM, regarding Peak Oil. I have made my own website to the best of my current abbility. I have gone back to college to improve my abbility. I am a Pessimist! What I expected from this site was friendliness and encouragement. On the whole i've felt this, but through contact with you Damien I feel like P1ss1ng 00f to be honest!

If your intentions weren't intended to make feel like this, then I suggest you rethink your attitude. If we are to survive Peak Oil, then we must all get on. I appologise if this post comes across as a bit harsh, but its how I feel.

Sorry Damien for this post, but how many more newbies could feel put off by lack of friendliness?

I will add I appreciate your info for my meeting i'm in process of organising.
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fishertrop



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 859
Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wayne,

It's a tough job being the (sole?) moderator for a board like this, I'm sure Damian didn't mean to give you a hard time - only to keep the board in order (see the other thread discussion the growth and direction of the peakoil.com forums... http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1251 the PS moderator(s) have to work flat out to avoid such drift ).

If it's any consolation, a bunch of us have felt Damian's ire over time, that's why we call him "The Enforcer". There is an unofficial competition to see who's the first to rile him enough to get banned!

If you go to any of the PS events and want to say hello, you'll recognise him from this picture:


Remember the need to have a laugh whenever you can...
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wayne72



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 310
Location: Barnsley

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL well its took me a while to log back on here. I was going to stop posting or even visiting this Forum, but this picture/post as made me laugh enough to change my mind.

I realise how hard it is to run Forums on your own. Especially with to$$ers ( Laughing ) like me not adhearing to the rules.

I will now be more conseravtive (not Neo-Conservative though) on this Forum. But if you think my sites crap! just say, I don't get offended that way. I am trying to improve it, I have even enrolled back at college so as to improve my grammer. I am also giving loads of my spare time to reasearching info to put on my site. My "idle" comment was just a humourous comment, but I now see that humour should be put aside when it comes to PO.

I will keep visiting but I will have a less active approach to this Forum, i'll read more, rather than post. I will only post if I have somthing totally original to post about or a question I can't find any sort of answer from anywere else.
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wayne72



Joined: 02 Dec 2005
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Location: Barnsley

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decided that because of how I am, I will just keep posting. I'll have to be banned to stop. Even if no one bothers to reply to any of my posts i'll continue to post. Thats the way I am, why should I change Cool

Of course i'l try and leave cr?p out.
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DamianB
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayne72 wrote:
...but I now see that humour should be put aside when it comes to PO.


We'll need it to get us through:
http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=273
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fishertrop



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to make time for a laugh, PO or not !

Wayne, I think the aim of these forums (....people will correct me if I'm wrong!) is to offer quality information and reasoned (troll-free) debate.

If you have a post that fits that, then post.

And asking relevant questions that haven't been addressed previously is essential - 50% of the posts on this board are just that.
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wayne72



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have given a PM appology to Damien Laughing

But please let me defend myself on my first post here. Probably because of my Grammer not being so great, then it may not read how i'd like it to. The questions I gave were more hypothetical of my own thoughts.

My biggest problem of late as been Beer before Posts and skip reading. I have decided to cut both out. I now need to get serious, so as to be taken seriously. These problems have been brought on by my anger with PO and the problems of the Big Rollover.
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Cycloloco



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 192
Location: London, UK.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skeptik wrote:
MacG wrote:
Cycloloco wrote:
This doesn't look like a scam.


That is exactly the case with the good ones! They don't look like scams. That's why so many people fall for them.


Fusion Facts, January 1992 wrote:

BLACKLIGHT POWER, INC. The FIRST Commercialization of a New-Energy Device!

"On April 26, 1989, Dr. Mills had filed a patent for 'Energy/Matter Conversion Methods and Structures.' Dr. Mills states, '...we scaled it up greater than a factor of a thousand and we have right now a cell running that is a commercial demonstration of this technology. We're pushing right now ... we have a contract we're pursuing that will give us a one kilowatt -- a one thousand watt home heating unit within four months. We have the electrochemical power cell -- it is running. It has the capacity of putting out a thousand watts. And we are waiting for the heat exchanger unit to interface with that [power cell] and we will have a prototype of a home heating unit.'"

'We congratulate Dr. Randell L. Mills for being the first to get a new-energy technology to market. For further information see the Website."

source:http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_6_8_1.html



The Guardian, Nov 4, 2005 wrote:
According to Prof Maas, the first product built with Blacklight's technology, which will be available in as little as four years, will be a household heater. As the technology is scaled up, he says, bigger furnaces will be able to boil water and turn turbines to produce electricity.



This is a major red flag. The big claims - the train which never quite arrives at the station, always for very good reasons that are never the fault of the inventor. It always needs just that bit more time and money to finish off the development phase, to overcome those final unexpected little hiccups...

Apart from producing loads of papers covering life the universe and everything in Physics, Blacklight power appears not to have advanced an inch since 1989 in the commercialisation of its discovery. This despite what appears to be a large well funded research facility.

The 'new' energy field is full of bullshit merchants.Their major abilities are talking the hind leg off a donky and churning out endless reems of inpenetrable 'theory' and 'documentation'. rather than producing any 'new' energy.

Not worth thinking about unless you read that Comet, Homebase et al. are going to start selling Blacklight heaters.


It is time to resurrect this thread because Blacklightpower now have a press release (4-page Word doc) on their website. They are almost keeping to their recent timetable, now advertising a 50KW prototype for delivery in 12-18 months.
http://www.blacklightpower.com
That revision of 20th century quantum mechanics is getting closer.
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