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Lord Monckton on Bonn climate conf: They're at it again
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2 As and a B



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 2592

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
clv101 wrote:
RalphW wrote:
I like this piece.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53651


That's great!


+101%

Excellent.

+1
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raspberry-blower



Joined: 14 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

foodimista wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
clv101 wrote:
RalphW wrote:
I like this piece.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/53651


That's great!


+101%

Excellent.

+1


+1
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contadino



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bandidoz wrote:

"Middle Class guilt" about eco-impacts has very little to do with it. With us it's purely about the evidence we've seen on the availability of resources in the near future, and wanting to make sure we're adaptable to those changing circumstances and likely scenarios. Being proactive. Making sure we're resilient enough so we can continue to enjoy having a warm home with the occasional hot shower. You've not understood a single word any of us have written; you just keep firing your Daily Mail prejudices at us. That's why you're being told to f**k off.


Thanks to those preparations, I'm pretty confident that you'll find a high percentage of us on here have felt little pain of the economic downturn over the last few years. I suspect that percentage is much higher than, say, a climate change sceptics forum.

If you bury your head in the sand about climate change, you're likely to bury your head in the sand about the energy descent, about economics, about the need to be financially and resourcefully self-sufficient.

But flogger, having seen your posting profile, I'm confident that you're either flogging this dead horse professionally, or because you're out of work.
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flogger



Joined: 01 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Middle Class guilt" about eco-impacts has very little to do with it.


Except everything ! This is now a political movement sadly

Quote:
With us it's purely about the evidence we've seen on the availability of resources in the near future, and wanting to make sure we're adaptable to those changing circumstances and likely scenarios.


And I agree. Its just that the extremists seem to be controlling the agenda of late with this demonization of CO 2 (a benign and largely beneficial gas) being the last straw frankly

Quote:
Being proactive. Making sure we're resilient enough so we can continue to enjoy having a warm home with the occasional hot shower.


I agree again. I just disagree that pushing the economic self destruct button (just to see if it works) would somehow be beneficial to anyone.

Quote:
You've not understood a single word any of us have written; you just keep firing your Daily Mail prejudices at us


You are quite wrong . I've read BOTH sides of the debate over decades now and am perhaps rather more pragmatic about this never ending eco alarmism. There has been a dynamic driving this agenda which has far less to do with saving the planet and far more to do with social restructuring especially over the last 20 years since the invention of AGW and the fall of the wall.

Code:
But flogger, having seen your posting profile, I'm confident that you're either flogging this dead horse professionally, or because you're out of work.


Nope . I just disdain extremism in any form, and this sort represents the greatest threat to the welfare of billions since the Cold War ended. The policies advocated by the IPCC would put the benefits of industrialisation further beyond many of the poorest. Taking away the hope many in the third world have of a better life (by artificially pricing energy beyond them) in order to somehow mythically 'save the planet' is not something I could ever endorse as it is essentially anti human ..... like I said.
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Why do we listen to the IPCC when its boss is an ex railway engineer with no climate expertise whatsoever ?

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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, the 'poorest' have been getting poorer.

So that's alright then. Carry on.
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2 As and a B



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you regard stating facts as extremism, then you really are a twit!

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Bandidoz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flogger wrote:
Quote:
"Middle Class guilt" about eco-impacts has very little to do with it.

Except everything ! This is now a political movement sadly

Perhaps to you. But not to us.

flogger wrote:
Quote:
With us it's purely about the evidence we've seen on the availability of resources in the near future, and wanting to make sure we're adaptable to those changing circumstances and likely scenarios.


And I agree.

Quote:
Being proactive. Making sure we're resilient enough so we can continue to enjoy having a warm home with the occasional hot shower.


I agree again.

Good. So please discuss those dimensions with us. We get that you don't want to see Industrial Society powering down for the sake of Climate Change mitigation; you've told us that enough times already. If that's your campaign, fine, so be it, but please understand that that's not our concern.

For instance we could argue until we're blue in the face whether Ferraris are better than Lamborghinis, but no-one on this site would give a damn because that's not what they're here for.

So please, stay on topic.
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flogger



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Meanwhile, the 'poorest' have been getting poorer.

So that's alright then. Carry on.


So lets not accelerate that process by punitive and unecessary climate legislation.Lets use those squandered Billions wasted on this issue to help mitigate thier circumstances.
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Why do we listen to the IPCC when its boss is an ex railway engineer with no climate expertise whatsoever ?

So much for its credibility !
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flogger

I think you're really in the wrong place here. But by all means, carry on posting, it's your prerogative.

To be honest, I can't help get the feeling there are some dots you can't or won't join. No offence intended, my friend - we've all been there at some point.

The forum really is about moving from one type of world into another; it's not about converting someone. They have to want to be converted, which is why I think you're wasting your time.

The forum has helped me enormously and continues to do so, which is how it should be. As a result of information and help found here, I now have a peaceful, cheap way of life and feel far less insecure about whatever the future might hold; and by the way, guilt never came into these decisions, I am of a working-class, low educational achievement background and have never held a well-paid job.

Like JohnB, I've no wish to see the world around me collapse (though I sometimes tongue-in-cheek say so). Using common sense, anyone can see there's a strong probability things are going to go pear-shaped, slowly or quickly, no-one can say, from any one of a wide range of tipping points.

The forum is here to help people deal with that probability, that's all. There must be a thousand fora where you'll get a better reception.

Good luck!
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flogger



Joined: 01 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
flogger

I think you're really in the wrong place here. But by all means, carry on posting, it's your prerogative.

To be honest, I can't help get the feeling there are some dots you can't or won't join. No offence intended, my friend - we've all been there at some point.

The forum really is about moving from one type of world into another; it's not about converting someone. They have to want to be converted, which is why I think you're wasting your time.

The forum has helped me enormously and continues to do so, which is how it should be. As a result of information and help found here, I now have a peaceful, cheap way of life and feel far less insecure about whatever the future might hold; and by the way, guilt never came into these decisions, I am of a working-class, low educational achievement background and have never held a well-paid job.

Like JohnB, I've no wish to see the world around me collapse (though I sometimes tongue-in-cheek say so). Using common sense, anyone can see there's a strong probability things are going to go pear-shaped, slowly or quickly, no-one can say, from any one of a wide range of tipping points.

The forum is here to help people deal with that probability, that's all. There must be a thousand fora where you'll get a better reception.

Good luck!


Emordnilap thank you for your very considered and measured response to my comments . Its refreshing to know that some here can respond with civility to those whose viewpoints may differ fundamentally from those you hold I hope others here will learn by your example.

I must most earnestly qualify my position to you as most certainly NOT anti environmtalism per se. I am anti extremism which in my view is perhaps the greatest threat we face today in the climate change arena . I pose myself as a climate REALIST rather than propagandist. That mankind has done huge damage to the biosphere is beyond question, but the only solutions offered by the extremists would result in the destruction of mankind. I cannot countenance that under any circumstances nor should you. I have offered up quotes from those in authority who seek just such an eventuality. In my view this can never be allowed to stand without challenge.
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Why do we listen to the IPCC when its boss is an ex railway engineer with no climate expertise whatsoever ?

So much for its credibility !
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2 As and a B



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are a propagandist. You are not a realist. Whilst having no grounding in science yourself - no real, deep understanding of the principles that underly how the universe works - you refuse to accept facts supplied by those with appropriate scientific training, knowledge and experience. On the contrary, you concentrate your attention on the misrepresented and false science supplied by the Science and Public Policy Institute and try to propagate it here, and no doubt elsewhere.

Why do people not believe your propaganda? Because it is not true; you are peddling lies.

Stay here and post by all means if that is what you are driven to do, but remember that the others here are more knowledgeable and intelligent than you.

*** hits Submit chuckling ***
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goslow



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey flogger, we don't want you give you the excuse to go away thinking that folk like us are not open to debate. But please be aware that people are taking up their precious time to respond to you, when what you are presenting are a set of arguments very much discredited among most of the folk here. The sort of thing that can be easily rebutted by an A-level science student.

We do have a few climate skeptics here (not myself) and they are welcomoe. My point is that this is mainly a peak oil forum. You have talked about AGW a lot. It just so happens that peak oil and AGW have the same set of solutions, so discussion about AGW does come up quite a lot.

If you have some genuine questions about peak oil, by all means have a read of wikipedia, then get back to us if there is anything you don't understand or disagree with. If you want to debate AGW at length, this is not really the forum for it. Try looking at realclimate to get the other side of the argument.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's as in http://www.realclimate.org/
There's no better portal for climate science and the current top two posts are particularly pertinent for people who have yet to realise what's going on.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
the current top two posts are particularly pertinent


Biff, which two do you mean, please? Embarassed
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one was posted yesterday:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/08/expert-credibility-in-climate-change-%E2%80%93-responses-to-comments/

and this one which was posted a few days ago:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2010/07/happy-35th-birthday-global-warming/

It discusses the Broecker paper that Chris mentioned earlier.
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