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PowerSwitch going downhill - Stage 4/5 collapse?
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Mean Mr Mustard



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
Posts: 1556
Location: Cambridgeshire

PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: PowerSwitch going downhill - Stage 4/5 collapse? Reply with quote

Seems to me that there's far too much aggression on here of late, between posters and lashing out in general.

Maybe it's just an early symptom of Orlov's stages of collapse..?

Stage 1, check. Evil or Very Mad
Stage 2, underway. Evil or Very Mad
Stage 3. 'Big Society' mitigation attempt and likely failure underway. Rolling Eyes
Stage 4 and 5. Early signs evident on this very forum... ...as long as we don't resort to cannibalism. Shocked



Stage 1: Financial collapse. Faith in "business as usual" is lost. The future is no longer assumed resemble the past in any way that allows risk to be assessed and financial assets to be guaranteed. Financial institutions become insolvent; savings are wiped out, and access to capital is lost.

Stage 2: Commercial collapse. Faith that "the market shall provide" is lost. Money is devalued and/or becomes scarce, commodities are hoarded, import and retail chains break down, and widespread shortages of survival necessities become the norm.

Stage 3: Political collapse. Faith that "the government will take care of you" is lost. As official attempts to mitigate widespread loss of access to commercial sources of survival necessities fail to make a difference, the political establishment loses legitimacy and relevance.

Stage 4: Social collapse. Faith that "your people will take care of you" is lost, as local social institutions, be they charities or other groups that rush in to fill the power vacuum run out of resources or fail through internal conflict.

Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in the goodness of humanity is lost. People lose their capacity for "kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity" (Turnbull, The Mountain People). Families disband and compete as individuals for scarce resources. The new motto becomes "May you die today so that I die tomorrow" (Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago). There may even be some cannibalism.

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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what is your suggestion that we do about it ? You evil divisive malinger Twisted Evil Wink
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the forum is a lot less practical (though admittedly most of what you need to know is here somewhere already) these days - and far more "technology/GMOs/nuclear/finance/shale/tar/more-of-what-got-us-into-this-mess-will-save-us" blinkeredness.

There are several deluded now compulsively and reiteratively posting, convinced it's others that need education!
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:
And what is your suggestion that we do about it ?


Ignore them is easiest.
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Mean Mr Mustard



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:
And what is your suggestion that we do about it ? You evil divisive malinger Twisted Evil Wink


Er... you forgot the er. Malingerer innit.

I resemble that remark.

But seriously, maybe some active moderation and emphasis of norms - like the 'would you actually say that in a Pub test' might help?
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2 As and a B



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I love that pub test. If some people here were to say in my presence what they write on the forum, I'd punch their lights out. Then stamp on their prospects and tell them to never even look in my direction again. Twisted Evil Wink

But what can one do in a forum. I mean "Fugg off you ignorant little know-nothing know-it-all!" doesn't exactly have the same, er, impact. Rolling Eyes
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JohnB



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly, there was quite a bit of bad tempered argument going on on the Permaculture UK Forum a while ago. I set up a "Member's Bar" Forum, and transferred all the argumentative topics into it. Users have to apply to join it, and guess what, not one person has joined, and there is currently no arguing going on. Maybe they've all come here under different names Very Happy.
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Mean Mr Mustard



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note the very clear distinction made here in Monty Python's Argument Clinic between outright abuse, and an argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

I'm looking forward to using 'shut your festering gob you tit' whenever the opportunity arises here. Shouldn't be a long wait. Twisted Evil
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Mean Mr Mustard



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnB wrote:
Interestingly, there was quite a bit of bad tempered argument going on on the Permaculture UK Forum a while ago.


Permaculturalists falling out in vicious infighting? That's like the WI engaging in drive-by shootings.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's going to get worse. I had a recent "incident" with MacG over his climate change nonsense, but that's really just a question about science. He's gone now anyway. Arguments/disputes like that are resolvable, because that's what science does. It was about ignorance. But a lot of the nasty stuff that seems to happen on a more regular basis around here is to do with the left/right political debate rather than anything resolvable by science. I think that as times get harder, so that dispute will get fiercer. Even if everyone here is serious about their environmentalism and commited to eradicating pseudoscientific nonsense we are not going to be able to agree about the distribution of wealth. It is a foretaste of what is going to happen in wider public debate in the forseeable future.
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Mean Mr Mustard



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, much of the unpleasantness here is politically driven. The sooner we get past Stage 3 the better, as beyond that point, replacing one set of rogues with another set will be widely accepted as pointless.

What bothers me more - and should certainly be of concern to others who've been around here a while - is how the lowered tone and mudslinging must be trashing the reputation of this site in general.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mean Mr Mustard wrote:
Yup, much of the unpleasantness here is politically driven. The sooner we get past Stage 3 the better, as beyond that point, replacing one set of rogues with another set will be widely accepted as pointless.


Yet we will still have to vote for a government, unless you are advocating some sort of post-democratic UK.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd been seriously contemplating de-bookmarking PS given the recent goings-on. Just saying, like. 'Cause I seem to spend far more time reiterating what I'd always thought to be pretty straightforward, rather than learning owt new. Neither of the 2 people I end up sparring the most with seem to have said anything informative (i.e. preparations, news) recently (one case) at all (the other one).
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JohnB



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
Neither of the 2 people I end up sparring the most with seem to have said anything informative (i.e. preparations, news) recently (one case) at all (the other one).

Well stop it then, and concentrate on productive posts. And silliness of course Very Happy.
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Ludwig



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Yeah, the forum is a lot less practical (though admittedly most of what you need to know is here somewhere already) these days - and far more "technology/GMOs/nuclear/finance/shale/tar/more-of-what-got-us-into-this-mess-will-save-us" blinkeredness.

But these are legitimate topics, surely?

I think the change may be inevitable. A few years ago, most people who knew about PO would have found out about it through the "green" grapevine, and would be interested primarily in practical measures. Now, as the world economic crisis deepens and dominates news headlines, people are coming to PO from the angle of politics and economics.

Speaking personally, it is politics and economics that interest me. While I support the green movement in principle, I can't pretend that self-sufficient living has much interest for, or appeal to, me. I understand I may have to develop an interest in it, but to be honest it'll be an uphill struggle.
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