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Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
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clv101
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isenhand wrote:
clv101 wrote:

Got to agree with this - just because Roman civilisation wasn?t ?industrial? doesn?t mean there weren?t small pockets of what we would call industrial civilisation.


Yes it does, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-industrial_society

Smile

Don't see what that page as to do with the topic at hand - I'm not claiming the Romans were an "industrial society" just that there were pockets of industrial society - the mining operation in Shropshire involved division on labour, involved mass production etc - industry.
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isenhand



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
isenhand wrote:
clv101 wrote:

Got to agree with this - just because Roman civilisation wasn?t ?industrial? doesn?t mean there weren?t small pockets of what we would call industrial civilisation.


Yes it does, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-industrial_society

Smile

Don't see what that page as to do with the topic at hand - I'm not claiming the Romans were an "industrial society" just that there were pockets of industrial society - the mining operation in Shropshire involved division on labour, involved mass production etc - industry.


An industrial society has to do with the level of industry in that society. A non-industrial society can have some degree of industry. The Romans were a pre-industrial society with some level of industry (not pockets of ?industrial society?). Thus, as an example of how pre-industrial societies can destroy the environment it still stands. Which brings me back to my main point. Its not ?industrial societies? that destroy ?mind and environment?. You can do that in a pre-industrial society (Easter Island would form another example). The important point to get to is; people. People do the actual destroying. Its quite possible to have an industrial society that doesn?t ?destroy mind and the environment? and possible to have a pre- or non-industrial society that does.

In other words, blaming industrial society doesn?t get to the cause of the problem. It doesn?t follow, therefore, that going back to a non-industrial society will fix the problem.


Smile
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Bandidoz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/industry (my emphasis)

Quote:
in?dus?try(nd-str) n. pl. in?dus?tries
1. Commercial production and sale of goods.
2. A specific branch of manufacture and trade: the textile industry. See Synonyms at business.
3. The sector of an economy made up of manufacturing enterprises: government regulation of industry.
4. Industrial management.
5. Energetic devotion to a task or an endeavor; diligence: demonstrated great intelligence and industry as a prosecutor.
6. Ongoing work or study associated with a specified subject or figure: the Civil War industry; the Hemingway industry.
7. Archaeology
a. A collection of artifacts or tools made from a specified material: a Mesolithic bone industry.
b. A standardized tradition of toolmaking associated with a specified tool or culture: a stone hand-ax industry; the Acheulian industry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English industrie, skill, from Old French, from Latin industria, diligence, from feminine of industrius, diligent; see ster-2 in Indo-European roots.]

Word History
A clear indication of the way in which human effort has been harnessed as a force for the commercial production of goods and services is the change in meaning of the word industry. Coming from the Latin word industria, meaning "diligent activity directed to some purpose," and its descendant, Old French industrie, with the senses "activity," "ability," and "a trade or occupation," our word (first recorded in 1475) originally meant "skill," "a device," and "diligence" as well as "a trade."

Over the course of the Industrial Revolution, as more and more human effort became involved in producing goods and services for sale, the last sense of industry as well as the slightly newer sense "systematic work or habitual employment" grew in importance, to a large extent taking over the word.

We can even speak now of the Shakespeare industry, rather like the garment industry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noun
1. industry - the people or companies engaged in a particular kind of commercial enterprise; "each industry has its own trade publications"

2. industry - the organized action of making of goods and services for sale; "American industry is making increased use of computers to control production"

3. industry - persevering determination to perform a task; "his diligence won him quick promotions"; "frugality and industry are still regarded as virtues"


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isenhand



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bandidoz wrote:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/industry


Yeap, but I think everyone is happy with industry and the Romans having industry. However, having industry does not make a society an industrial one. For a society to have the classification an industrial society it needs to have a certain set of characteristics, which include most workers engaged in industry rather than, say, farming (something that did not happen until the industrial revolution), a high degree of specialisation and high levels of communications. So, the Romans had most workers engaged in activities other than industry and was mainly a farming society, thus forms an example of a pre-industrial society even if it did have pockets of industry. Therefore, the point still stands; non-industrial societies can destroy ?mind and the environment?.

See for example sociology guide:

Quote:
Industrial society
The Industrial mode of production began some 250 years ago in Britain and from there it spread to the entire world. In the simplest sense an industrial society is a social system whose mode of production focuses primarily on finished goods manufactured with the aid of machinery. According to Wallace and Wallace in industrial societies the largest portion of the labour force is involved in mechanized production of goods and services. The term 'industrial societies' originated from Saint Simon who chose it to reflect the emerging central role of manufacturing industry in the 18th century Europe in contrast with previous pre-industrial and agrarian society.



Smile
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sushil_yadav



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
Oh do stop splitting hairs. We all know what Sushil means and we know he's right.


biffvernon,

You have very rightly mentioned "splitting hairs". Modern Society has gone insane - people are engaging in endless arguments. There is a very nice story titled "Ship of Fools" which deals with this issue. A ship is headed towards an iceberg - but the crew and passengers are all engaged in meaningless arguments over trivial issues.

One member said guns don't kill people. If guns don't kill people what are they meant for - picnic?. In this context I want to repeat a part from my article.

Discussions, Debates and Arguments.

Let us examine how much discussion we are collectively having in Industrial Society every day.

Millions of pages in print ? newspapers / books / magazines.
Millions of web-pages on internet every day.

Now add to this all the conversation (discussion) we are having through radio / television / telephone and several other media every day.

And add to this all the discussion we are having through face-to-face interaction.

The volume of discussion per individual in one week is greater than the total discussion someone living in pre-industrial society would have in his entire life.

There is too much discussion in modern society.
Discussion is not solving our problems ? discussion itself has become a problem ? a gigantic problem.


A society that does mental work will discuss itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will argue itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will debate itself to destruction [extinction]


A society that does mental work can never stop discussions / debates / arguments ? it is impossible. It will discuss / debate / argue till the last moment of it?s existence.

Discussions / Debates / Arguments ? these are creations of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.

Discussions / Debates / Arguments ? these are diseases of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.


Discussions / debates / arguments can end only in agriculture-based societies that do physical work.

We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously.

There is an inverse relationship between physical-work and mental-work.
If one is high [more] the other has got to be low [less]

If we want to do physical work we have to reduce mental activity by the same proportion.
If we want to do mental work we have to reduce physical activity by the same proportion.

There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies.

sushil_yadav

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Bandidoz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

It looks as though your thinking goes through so many layers of abstraction that you've run out of oxygen and lost touch with reality Razz

Quote:
We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously
I don't agree. I can think about almost anything whilst rowing a boat.

sushil_yadav wrote:
There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies.

I'm not sure I agree with that philosophy. Whenever I've come across people who are involved in agriculture they tend to repeat themselves over and over again in conversation (as well as blame Johnny foreigner for everything). I'm not sure whether it's to do with them taking little interest in matters, being ignorant about matters, or whether the heavy drinking has all but destroyed their brains. Frankly, they spend hours talking bo**ocks.
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Last edited by Bandidoz on Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sushil_yadav



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

Pippa wrote:
Sushil

If you look again at the reasons you give for man working do you still believe these to be true? I think you have missed something there in terms of what really motivates.
I know I don't work simply because if I stop I get depressed and anxious, I do work because I have to which is because so many of us are in the debt cycle which is driven by the need to have somewhere to live and something to eat. Realising this truth is what makes me depressed and anxious.


Pippa,

Thanks for your comment. This is what I had written about "Work" in the original post.

As soon as we stop working we experience mental suffering.

We avoid suffering by working ceaselessly.

There is no higher purpose behind work.

People do not work because they want to work.
People work because they cannot stop working.

The energy generated by the food we eat forces us to work ceaselessly.

Energy = Energy[Physical Work] + Energy[Mental Work] + Energy[Suffering/ Subjective Experience]

All three energies on the right side are inversely proportional to one another.

When we do hard physical work or hard mental work or a combination of physical work and mental work almost all energy is used up in doing work.

When we stop physical work and mental work the unused energy is experienced as suffering/ anxiety/ restlessness/ discomfort. This suffering is so intense - so unbearable - that most people cannot stop physical activity and mental activity simultaneously for even 2 minutes.

People do not work because they want to work.
People do not work for their family.
People do not work for their nation.
People do not work for any reason.

People work because they cannot stop working.

It does not matter what kind of work we do - whether it is physical work or any kind of mental work. As soon as we stop working we suffer from restlessness, anxiety, uneasiness and discomfort.

[ In Yoga and Meditation the goal is to stop Physical Activity and Mental Activity simultaneously - and then transform the subjective-experience of restlessness/ anxiety/ suffering into peace. This requires ability and years of effort ]



Pippa - the choice of stopping work - the option of stopping work does not exist for most people. We cannot sleep continuously - and in the waking state we cannot stop working. It is also not possible to indulge in pleasure/ entertainment continuously. This is the reason why the Rich also work - the Famous also work. For most people stopping work is only possible under the influence of Drugs and Alcohol.

sushil_yadav
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Andy Hunt



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I stop working I don't suffer mental anguish, I suffer a really nice relaxing holiday!

If I was on holiday permanently I think I would get bored though, and want to do something productive with my time. Creative activity is very fulfilling.

Not sure about not being able to do mental and physical work simultaneously though - when I am chopping logs I think about all sorts of things!

I agree though that a lot of people are stuck in dreary day jobs just to pay the bills, when they would rather be at home, in the garden or in the pub.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

sushil_yadav wrote:
We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously.

There is an inverse relationship between physical-work and mental-work.
If one is high [more] the other has got to be low [less]


Don't know how it is for others, but in my case this statement is directly wrong.

When I get stuck with a difficult theoretical problem, the best thing to do is to go out and do some physical work - chop some firewood, dig up and replant something, fix an engine or something like that. While I do the physical work, my brain work in the background on the theoretical problem.

Conversely, it would not be possible for me to solve many theoretical problems if I had not had such a vast amount of experience from practical work.

If you want to be a new Jesus, you have to make your act stick together a little better.
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Pippa
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sushil

I'm not sure if I'm missing your point or your missing mine.

I like not doing too much, especially if I'm in company.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

sushil_yadav wrote:

People work because they cannot stop working.

The energy generated by the food we eat forces us to work ceaselessly.


I would suggest that you've got it the wrong way round. The vast majority of people on this planet work because they want to eat, not because what they've eaten forces them to work. Starvation is a very unpleasant process, and a good portion of the planet is malnourished at best, starving at worst and has no 'welfare state' safety net.

Survival is our basic biological imperative. That's why we work.

sushil_yadav wrote:
In Yoga and Meditation the goal is to stop Physical Activity and Mental Activity simultaneously - and then transform the subjective-experience of restlessness/ anxiety/ suffering into peace. This requires ability and years of effort


Meanwhile who pays the the supermarket bills?

Step right up , folks...buy the book... buy the CD...take the course. Spirititual peace available for 12 low monthly payments...
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

MacG wrote:


Don't know how it is for others, but in my case this statement is directly wrong.

When I get stuck with a difficult theoretical problem, the best thing to do is to go out and do some physical work - chop some firewood, dig up and replant something, fix an engine or something like that. While I do the physical work, my brain work in the background on the theoretical problem.

Conversely, it would not be possible for me to solve many theoretical problems if I had not had such a vast amount of experience from practical work.


The brain works on two levels, the conscious and the subconscious. You can consciously set your subconscious brain a puzzle, program it, and go off to do something else while your subconscious solves the problem.

If I have a design problem that's not working out, I'll often go out and do some gardening or log chopping then come back only to work out a solution quite quickly or even have the answer pop into my consciousness while I'm gardening. Try it!
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sushil_yadav



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

To all the wise people who believe Physical work and Mental work can be done simultaneously.

Are you people living with your eyes and ears closed?

Billions of people go to millions of Offices to do mental work. They make themselves physically inactive [ or reduce physical activity to the minimum] by sitting on Chairs - the mental work they are supposed to do - papers/ files/ computers are kept on the Table. People who work from home do the same.

If we want to do mental work we have to stop physical activity[ or reduce it to the minimum level]

The converse is also true.

It is ridiculous to say physical work and mental work can be done simultaneously.

A professor teaches mathematics inside a room where he is not doing hard physical work simultaneously. Can any professor take a class while ploughing his Field or playing rugby/ football simultaneously?

If it were possible to do physical work and mental work simultaneously there would be no need for millions of Offices - people would be doing all their office work outdoors.

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Norm



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry but I dont buy this! Mental and physical work are not mutually exclusive. Fighter pilots and technician engineers to name but two do both together .
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment Reply with quote

sushil_yadav wrote:
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
PlanetSave
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Well you seem to be having no trouble posting the same message on various discussion groups... I think there's a word for that but it escapes me right now.. so I think I'll pass on your request to spread the word.

Quote:
Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table.

Fair enough, If thats what you think is a good course of action.

Hmm.. but dont you think it would be a good idea if you started following your own prescription by removing your computer from the table and recycling it, then started digging your garden?

I'm sure you find people whose message is "Don't do as I do, do as I say" as irritating as I do.
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