PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The End of Nuclear
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Nuclear Power
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 13974
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butterfly mutations
_________________
"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12469
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevecook172001 wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:
Most of the countries involved were, and remain (for different reasons now) not in a position to supply reliable records.
RC, that is sounding dangerously close to the kind of fringe-group conspiraloon type of rhetoric that, in any other context, we would take apart.

Are you really suggesting that there is a concerted worldwide and fully effective conspiracy to hide the numbers...
Far from it. I'm saying that the numbers are simply very difficult to ascertain, for the same reason that (for example) most of the Chinese people I know who were born anywhere near the dates of the Cultural Revolution simply do not know their exact dates of birth: the data is (are) absent. Destroyed.
_________________
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
The Price of Time
BLOG
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5667
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:
Most of the countries involved were, and remain (for different reasons now) not in a position to supply reliable records.
RC, that is sounding dangerously close to the kind of fringe-group conspiraloon type of rhetoric that, in any other context, we would take apart.

Are you really suggesting that there is a concerted worldwide and fully effective conspiracy to hide the numbers...
Far from it. I'm saying that the numbers are simply very difficult to ascertain, for the same reason that (for example) most of the Chinese people I know who were born anywhere near the dates of the Cultural Revolution simply do not know their exact dates of birth: the data is (are) absent. Destroyed.
That's one country, one regime, one single administration potentially involved in a cover up. Consequently, that is a wholly specious comparison to make RC.

Last edited by Little John on Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12469
Location: York

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I've put this clearly enough: "cover-up" implies some degree of competence in that the data exist/ed (were competently gathered) but are hidden or subsequently destroyed deliberately and, yes, competently.

What I'm describing is a situation in which the data (numbers and locations of sick people, deaths, etc) were simply never gathered. Death certificates lost, hospital records misplaced when institutes relocated, temporarily-shut buildings looted and papers scattered by looters in search of drugs/metal/cash, paperwork burned to keep warm when the heating didn't work and the boss stayed at home, that kind of thing. I know that at least some of the above happened in Russia in the early 90s: it's not unreasonable to suppose that Belarus, Ukraine etc suffered similarly.
_________________
Soyez réaliste. Demandez l'impossible.
The Price of Time
BLOG
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5667
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
I don't think I've put this clearly enough: "cover-up" implies some degree of competence in that the data exist/ed (were competently gathered) but are hidden or subsequently destroyed deliberately and, yes, competently.

What I'm describing is a situation in which the data (numbers and locations of sick people, deaths, etc) were simply never gathered. Death certificates lost, hospital records misplaced when institutes relocated, temporarily-shut buildings looted and papers scattered by looters in search of drugs/metal/cash, paperwork burned to keep warm when the heating didn't work and the boss stayed at home, that kind of thing. I know that at least some of the above happened in Russia in the early 90s: it's not unreasonable to suppose that Belarus, Ukraine etc suffered similarly.
That may or may not be the case in the areas and Soviet countries immediately in the vicinity of the Chernobyl accident. However, as I have already pointed out, the no-threshold model of exposure clearly predicts that there should be a measurable effect in countries that were not soviet and who kept more reliable public records. Their records show no such relationship between morbidity rates and Chernobyl. That leads one to assume, at least plausibly, the the lack of data for any significant morbidity in the soviet countries, is also because here is no significant relationship and certainly not one based on the no-threshold model. Indeed, the lack of any relationship as we move out from the soviet countries immediately surrounding Chernobyl and enter countries who kept reliable records basically trashes the no threshold model.

I am not saying there can be no relationship at all. I am saying that it appears to be relatively tiny if it exists at all and also that even if it did exist at all, it was extremely short lived.

There is one final thing that also occurs to me as well. Since the introduction of compensation schemes to anyone who may have been injured as a result of Chernobyl, huge number of people in the areas surrounding Chernobyl, from what I have read, have persuaded their medical authorities to report that their illness may have resulted from radiation poisoning. Thus, one might assume that, if anything, there is an over reporting occurring rather than the opposite. If we take all of those suspected radiation caused illnesses and compare them against the record of such illnesses prior to Chernobyl it has been found that they are more or less the same.

Youre obviously a clever woman RC. What does that tell you?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18551
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevecook172001 wrote:
However, as I have already pointed out, the no-threshold model of exposure clearly predicts that there should be a measurable effect


Wrong. It's in the nature of the beast that this is the area of high noise to signal ratio.
_________________
http://biffvernon.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
clv101
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 7636

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://euobserver.com/environment/117721
Quote:
Meanwhile, a preview into the content by French daily Le Figaro and
German daily Die Welt suggests none of Frances 58 nuclear power
plants meet, to varying degrees, the international security standards
outlined by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).

For the very first time in history, we know for all the nuclear power
plants in Europe whether these very high standards are actually used
or not used, said Holzner.

Nineteen French reactors have no seismic measuring instruments, says
Le Figaro. The paper also notes that safety and rescue equipment in
case of disaster is not adequately protected unlike at German, British
and Swedish reactors.

The report does not recommend shutting down any one EU nuclear power
plant, say the papers, but notes that getting them up to standard
would cost some 25 billion.

_________________
PowerSwitch on Facebook | The Oil Drum | Twitter | Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Nuclear Power All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Page 9 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group