PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Chernobyl's legacy
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Nuclear Power
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Aurora



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 8502

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:20 am    Post subject: Chernobyl's legacy Reply with quote

Quote:
The Guardian - 26/04/11

Twenty five years on from the world's worst nuclear accident, the number of cancers is rising, there are still restrictions on tens of thousands of square miles of land, and Ukraine and Belarus, the two countries most affected, are saddled with costs which they will continue to bear for thousands of years.

The full legacy of the 1986 explosion is still not clear, but a new study by international scientists for the National Institutes of Health, the US government's medical research agency, has found exposure to radioactive iodine-131 from Chernobyl fallout is likely to be responsible for thyroid cancers that are still occurring among people who were children or adolescents at the time of the accident. The researchers say they found no evidence to suggest that the increased cancer risk to those who lived in the area in 1986 is decreasing over time.

Article continues ...


[Bandidoz - removed pejorative nonsense]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2 As and a B



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 2592

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The nuclear industry uses the same arguments as the tobacco and asbestos industries used and say that, because people don't drop dead immediately upon exposure, there is no link between the substance and cancer deaths. The tobacco and asbestos industries have been recognised as liars, albeit liars for the best possible motives - to protect their profits for shareholders.

The nuclear industry will likewise be recognised as liars. It will just take a bit longer because the resultant cancers occur geographically distant from the nuclear sources and in people who have no connection with those nuclear sources and the industry will continue to argue the toss about the clinical significance of cancer clusters in nuclear fallout areas. (It is exactly this disconnect between cause and effect that has also allowed climate change deniers to protract their argument.)

Unfortunately, a lot of innocent people will have to die and a lot of our beautiful Earth will be poisoned and made uninhabitable before this vile nuclear industry is closed down and the nuclear liars are brought to justice. I've got just the sort of prison in mind for them - if the lynch mobs don't get them first.
_________________
I'm hippest, no really.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9820
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foodimista wrote:
I've got just the sort of prison in mind for them - if the lynch mobs don't get them first.


Prison? Just send them to clear up the mess their industry has made. After all they are telling us that it's safe.
_________________
"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18551
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBC R4 : Fallout - the Legacy of Chernobyl

The programme ended with King (ex cief government scientist) saying that a flight from London to New York exposed passengers to more radiation that a walk round Fukushima. That was a wrong statement.

(Not that folks should be flying to America, but that's a different story.)
_________________
http://biffvernon.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
An Inspector Calls
Banned


Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But other than that, I thought this was very good news indeed.

Not that I haven't said this before . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9820
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is very good news indeed, is it Inspector?

Quote:
According to the forum, poverty in the affected areas is now acute and far greater than in other areas of the former Soviet Union. The forced removal of the population proved traumatic and has scarred people for generations. "Even when resettlers were compensated and offered free houses, many retained a deep sense of injustice. Many are still unemployed, without a place in society and have little control over their lives. Some older resettlers may never adjust", said the forum in its most recent study.

The accident is said to have economically crippled those areas most affected by the fallout. Ukraine and Belarus have had to spend more than $12bn (7.3bn) each on Chernobyl measures so far. This, says the forum, has created an "unsustainable" and continuing burden on the two countries.

Farming has continued to suffer heavily. More than 785,000 hectares (1.9m acres) of land was taken out of service for years and timber production halted over another 700,000 hectares. As contamination declines, farming has resumed, but it costs more to grow food in affected areas, says the UN, because more fertiliser and additives are needed. In addition, the stigma of Chernobyl has made it harder for farmers to sell their food.

There are still widespread bans or restrictions on collecting or hunting mushrooms, berries, and game in many areas where high concentrations of caesium-137 are still found. Countries as far away as Britain, Sweden and Norway have still not lifted all restrictions on the sale of milk and other products. High contamination levels are still found in reindeer in Scandinavia and more than 300 hill farms in Wales still have to have their milk and animals tested before sale.

In Germany, the government paid out $555,000 in 2009 to hunters in compensation for wild boar meat that was too contaminated to be sold. In some areas this is more than 7,000 becquerel per kilogram, compared to the 600 bequerels which is considered safe.

New research by Greenpeace International suggests that many Ukrainians are still eating foods with unacceptably high levels of radiation. Samples taken earlier this year of milk, berries, potatoes and root vegetables grown in two Ukrainian regions showed levels well above normal.

There is little likelihood of there ever being a full return to normal life in the 19-mile (30km) exclusion zone around the reactor. A few hundred people still live there, with others moving in, but radiation levels are still extremely high. Ironically, the area is now a haven for wildlife which has benefited from the absence of people.


At least no one has died. Yet, and not directly attributable to Chernobyl, of course.
_________________
"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9820
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:
But other than that, I thought this was very good news indeed.

Not that I haven't said this before . . .


The radio feature good news because of the safety measures that have been instituted after the disaster. It's like the Y2K bug. There was loads of hype and fear but nothing happened because the computer industry took the matter seriously and instigated mitigation measures across the board. In the case of Chernobyl tens of thousands of people have been moved, hundreds of thousands of acres have been abandoned, millions of tonnes of food have been lost but it is debatable whether or not people have died precisely because of these very measures.

The radiation experts are happy to go into the exclusion zone for limited periods each year but would they go and live there? Perhaps the Inspector would volunteer as a guinea pig. At his age, though, he wouldn't be a very good subject because he is likely to die in a few years anyway, from natural causes.

We know people die from radiation because they have done so at the Atomic Weapons Establishment, where early safety measures were notoriously lax, and in Japan after the bombs were dropped. The question is, in the UK can we afford to gamble that one of our nukes blows up, with the accompanying loss of land and living space, against the gain in electrical power and present day living standards.

We aren't the ones who would pay, which is probably why people like the Inspector are happy to take the gamble, it is our children and grand children, and theirs, who would lose. That loss would be for hundreds of thousands of years, permanent compared to a few human lifespans, against a few years of our present luxury. The risk isn't just with a nuke blowing up, it's with the long term storage of the waste as well.

I, for one, don't think the risk is worth taking but we have seen the cavalier attitude to this risk that the Inspector shows in his previous posts.
_________________
"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
An Inspector Calls
Banned


Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh you really are getting nasty and personal now, aren't you?

Erm, in the programme I listened to there was mention that the authorities had decided, at an early stage, to let people stay within the exclusion zone as the least risk option for their health. Ross interviewed two such, aged 75 and 73 who'd gone back ~25 years ago. They were perfectly fine. In fact, I expect life is very pleasant there if you want to get away from it all.

As for your rest, it's just twaddle. Utter, complete twaddle. If you're not going to accept report after report on the Chernobyl area, all saying much the same thing (Ross, supported by the people he interviewed, says much the same as the Chernobyl Forum, but 6 years on) then you're obviously just an ardant nutcase.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
An Inspector Calls
Banned


Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal wrote:
We know people die from radiation because they have done so at the Atomic Weapons Establishment, where early safety measures were notoriously lax,


Uttter and complete rubbish.

[Bandidoz - edited]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aurora



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 8502

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:
kenneal wrote:
We know people die from radiation because they have done so at the Atomic Weapons Establishment, where early safety measures were notoriously lax,


Uttter and complete rubbish.

See what I mean Bandidoz.

[Bandidoz - edited]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DominicJ



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 4387
Location: NW UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foodimista wrote:
The nuclear industry uses the same arguments as the tobacco and asbestos industries used and say that, because people don't drop dead immediately upon exposure, there is no link between the substance and cancer deaths. The tobacco and asbestos industries have been recognised as liars, albeit liars for the best possible motives - to protect their profits for shareholders.


Tepco shareholders are pretty much certain to lose everything.....
_________________
I'm a realist, not a hippie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2 As and a B



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 2592

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:
kenneal wrote:
We know people die from radiation because they have done so at the Atomic Weapons Establishment, where early safety measures were notoriously lax,


Uttter and complete rubbish.

Most concise, compelling and complete argument yet from the nuclear lobby! Beautiful thrust. Rapier-like.

Remember Don't Drink the Water...



[Bandidoz - edited]
_________________
I'm hippest, no really.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9820
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:
kenneal wrote:
We know people die from radiation because they have done so at the Atomic Weapons Establishment, where early safety measures were notoriously lax,


Uttter and complete rubbish.


On what knowledge do you base your answer?

[Bandidoz - edited]
_________________
"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
An Inspector Calls
Banned


Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 961

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I await your substantiation of your claim that people have died at AWE from radiation exposure accumulated at AWE. You made the original, serious claim: you substantiate it.

I have no absolutely no knowledge or memory of any deaths. I can't find any information to say there was at AWE. Until you submit your information, I'll stick to my assertion that what you said was nonsense.

[Bandidoz - edited]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bandidoz
Site Admin


Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2705
Location: Berks

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep it clean guys.

kenneal wrote:
We know people die from radiation because they have done so at the Atomic Weapons Establishment, where early safety measures were notoriously lax


An Inspector Calls wrote:
I await your substantiation of your claim....


kenneal wrote:
Having checked with my source, it appears that I was a bit over zealous in saying that there were deaths caused by radiation at AWE or AWRE as it then was. There were an increased number of cancers and deaths in workers at AWRE in the early years when it was run by the MOD but these could not be definitely attributed to radiation exposure. Sound familiar? The safety procedures have been, for some unknown reason, significantly upgraded since then, however.


I suspect he'd be sworn to non-disclosure on this one.
_________________
Olduvai Theory (Updated) (Reviewed)
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://dieoff.org/page145.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Nuclear Power All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group