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Set aside fears and Build reactors not windmills
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An Inspector Calls
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperman wrote:

And renewables <> wind. A pan-european region of high pressure will not affect Scandinavian hydro or biogas plant or Icelandic geothermal or East European biomass or North African solar, all of which can be brought into the mix by a network of interconnectors.


We only have interconnectors capable of wheeling 3 GW, no where near the ~20-30 GW of renewables proposed.

    Scandinavian hydro: well, aren't they using that themselves?
    Icelandic geothermal: presently ~150 MW installed (plus and minus - it gets wrecked by eruptions from Krafla every once in a while).
    Icelandic hydro: they're using it all - smelting. Besides it's highly seasonal (snow melt) and it needs to be remembered that Iceland is largely desert.
    East European biomass: just how much cow shit can these people produce?
    North African solar: nightime? And where is this to be? Libya?
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:

What evidence is there of any...
...thing that will convince the dedicated AGW denier? None. One cannot use rational argument to change the mind of the irrational.
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Pepperman



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I give up.
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goslow



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're still reducing the issue to one dimension each time, AIC.

Interconnectors are part of the answer. I don't have the data to hand: if you say we have 3 GW already, more are on the way inlcuing the Norway/UK as I understand.

Some intermittency can be handled by thermal generation (some of which is biomass/biogas), some by demand management (consumer level), some by storage and some by the fact that wind speed does vary most of the time around the UK and Europe.

- Scandinavia hydro - they already trade this quite a lot. Also Norway is starting to invest in more renewables like wind that they can export. They hydro can start to be used more as a battery, should we wish. As is already happening with respect to Danish wind.
- for Iceland, I don't know how important that is on the European scale-, but I do know they have a lot more unexploited potential for renewables
- east European biomass refers also to wood wastes
- CSP plants are proposed in north Africa with storage of solar energy in salt for nighttime production. Political issues could be interesting, sure.

We don't have to physically back up anything like the whole amount of nameplate capacity of wind turbines. Don't argue with me, argue with national grid on that one.
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An Inspector Calls
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
An Inspector Calls wrote:

What evidence is there of any...
...thing that will convince the dedicated AGW denier? None. One cannot use rational argument to change the mind of the irrational.


That's the second time you haven't answered a call for evidence.

biffvernon wrote:
An Inspector Calls wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
Careful, the Antarctic sea ice behaves quite differently to the Arctic. It certainly can't be expected to act as the same sort of global temperature proxy.

Oh really? There has to be some explanation of why the Antarctic sea ice anomaly is running year after year close to zero.


Yes there is an explanation. Too obvious to bother explaining here. Go look it up if you want to be informed. Don't if you wish to stay ignorant.
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An Inspector Calls
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goslow wrote:
You're still reducing the issue to one dimension each time, AIC.

Interconnectors are part of the answer.


It was Pepperman who suggested they were. They can provide some small amount of amelioration of the the effect of wind intermittency. The Norwegian interconnector will be only 400 MW.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:
That's the second time you haven't answered a call for evidence.

What evidence are you looking for from a random Internet forum that isn't included or cited in AR4's WG1 report?
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're heading for another record ice loss in the Arctic this year - http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_stddev_timeseries.png - and the ice area is following its downward trend - http://nsidc.org/images/arcticseaicenews/20110504_Figure3.png. Whether that is due to a feedback loop or not, we will find out in a few decades time when the research has been done.
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Last edited by kenneal - lagger on Wed May 18, 2011 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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clv101
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal wrote:
Whether that is die to a feedback loop or not, we will find out in a few decades time when the research has been done.


This man on the street reckons it is:


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goslow



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Inspector Calls wrote:
goslow wrote:
You're still reducing the issue to one dimension each time, AIC.

Interconnectors are part of the answer.


It was Pepperman who suggested they were. They can provide some small amount of amelioration of the the effect of wind intermittency. The Norwegian interconnector will be only 400 MW.


I suppose the "European supergrid" would have more capacity, is it not possible just to add more cables? Its a long term project.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or increase their size?
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goslow



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Upgrading of interconnectors has been done before concerning the UK-France link. I'm not saying its cheap (nor expensive?), but surely no technical issue about it.

A higher proportion of nuclear also creates grid stability issues, hence how the French export so much of theirs and encourage more electricity demand round the clock.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or make them DC instead of AC


(Love the Man in the Street Smile )
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An Inspector Calls
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal wrote:
We're heading for another record ice loss in the Arctic this year - [url]


But not in the Antarctic . . .

kenneal wrote:
- and the ice area is following its downward trend - [url]
But not in the Antarctic



[/img]
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An Inspector Calls
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
Or make them DC instead of AC



They already are.
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Interconnectors/France/
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