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End of the Minimum Wage?
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clv101
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
DominicJ wrote:
some people simply arent worth much.


Well, Dom is right - in the narrow economic sense. The point is it's ridiculous only to consider that narrow point of view.

It's perfectly reasonable to point out that some people's work is not 'worth' 5.93 an hour.

For example it would not be worth 5.93 an hour for someone to employ me to make baskets. It would take me maybe 3 hours (and use a few quids worth of material) to make a basket that my employer wouldn't be able to sell for the ~20 (+NIC, +marketing, +profit, etc) that they would need to.

...hence we don't make many baskets in the UK these days!

I guess Dom's problem is not seeing beyond the simply market economics.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CLV
Minimum "wage" might be 5.93, but minimum labour cost is much higher.
Remember, that comes with an additional 8% holiday entitlement and 13% Employers national insurance.
Thats 7.23 before you look at any other costs.

Quote:
I guess Dom's problem is not seeing beyond the simply market economics.

I'm curious, what else should I be seeing?


Is it better for someone to be unemployed, or earning 3 an hour and learning skills? Or god forbid, working without monetary compensation!

In Biffs sick little world its virtueous to deny the disabled a chance to prove they are capable.
I'm sorry if you dont like that, but you not liking the facts doesnt change them.

Under the current regime, If you are not worth 7.23 an hour, thats it, you are unemployed forever.
Under a fair regime, you wopulod be allowed to work for whatever you are worth to your employer, earning both money and skills, when those skills make you worth more, you can demand a pay rise, and leave if refused.

I've sat on both sides of the table, desperate for my "first chance" and throwing out application forms because they've never had a job, and sacking people is far too much hassle to risk.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"They're skills do create sufficient value?"

Did you mean to write 'Their skills do not create sufficient value'?

Where, Dom, do you get the idea that I don't do anything or that I don't run my own business? You really ought to do some homework to avoid stating the opposite of the truth.

What's a wopulod?
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goslow



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
Go Slow
Quote:
I don't have the possibility or desire to pay anyone to work for me at the moment.

Which is a polite way of saying the Labour of a "NEET" is worth nothing.
If you arent willing to pay someone 8 an hour to clean your house, that means you dont think a cleaner is worth 8 an hour to you.


Actually, I was just saying that its not relevant to us right now to employ a cleaner, we clean our own house. If I cleaned someone else's house I would expect to earn 8/hour.

I think anyone's labour is worth rather more than the minimum wage. If you can't earn enough to live on when working full time, something is wrong with the system (and by live on, I mean the minimum required for basic needs). That should apply to anyone on the basis of equal rights. Prisoners don't get the NMW but they are a special case (bed and board included....)
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GoSlow
Quote:
I think anyone's labour is worth rather more than the minimum wage.

Quote:
we clean our own house


Only one of those can be true.
They are mutualy exclusive statements.

Either you think its worthwhile to pay someone 8 an hour to clean your home, and you do so, or you do not feel it is worthwhile, and you do not do so

You do not think it would be worthwhile to pay someone 8 an hour to clean your home, this is evidenced by the fact that you do not pay someone to clean your home.

You might think its the "Fair Price", but by your own actions, demonstrate you yourself are unwilling to pay this supposedly fair price.

Biff, for all his protestations, does not value my next door neighbours labour at 8 an hour, I know this, because he does not employ her.
But not only that, he consigns her to unemployment and perpetual poverty, so *he* can feel moraley vindicated.

Quote:
If I cleaned someone else's house I would expect to earn 8/hour.


This is the counter arguement.
You would expect more than 8 an hour to clean someone elses home, we know your labour as a house cleaner is not worth more than 8 an hour, because, you do not clean homes.

Quote:
If you can't earn enough to live on when working full time, something is wrong with the system (and by live on, I mean the minimum required for basic needs).

I'm not stopping you employing every NEET in the country and paying them any sum equal to or above the minimum wage. Yet for some reason, you do not.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it just me or has Dom lost the plot?
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clv101
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dom's right from a purely market economic point of view - there are plenty of people in the UK who are willing to work for 3/hr and potential employers who'll pay folk that much for their time. Having a minimum wage set as we do does prevent people from being paid a pittance for work of low economic value. There's a stack of work of low economic value that needs doing in today's system! This results in higher unemployment than would otherwise be the case, and a shortage of people doing work of low economic value.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CLV
But its more than that.

Jobs of Low Pay dont provide JUST low pay. They provide experience.
If you havent already been in a job, most companies I'm aware of will not hire you.

The Minimum Wage is akin to breaking the bottom few rungs off the ladder, doesnt bother those who can reach higher rungs anyway, but you're in trouble if you cant reach the higher rungs.
You're stuck, in the gutter, forever.
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Totally_Baffled



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
Dom's right from a purely market economic point of view - there are plenty of people in the UK who are willing to work for 3/hr and potential employers who'll pay folk that much for their time. Having a minimum wage set as we do does prevent people from being paid a pittance for work of low economic value. There's a stack of work of low economic value that needs doing in today's system! This results in higher unemployment than would otherwise be the case, and a shortage of people doing work of low economic value.



I think like most issues the answer is in the middle somewhere, no minimum wage is bad due to exploitation etc, but a minimum wage set too high or does not move with the economic conditions (eg when there is high unemployment) can also be bad for the reason dom outlines?
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goslow



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I have read, the NMW is set at a value where it, in itself won't cause unemployment.

We do have plenty of people who work for less on a per-hour basis: volunteers, self-employed, interns, family of shop owners, jobs outsourced to developing countries...

I don't know all about the fine points of this issue but I suspect that the NMW in itself is not a big factor in current youth unemployment. More like poor education, unwillingness to relocate etc
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Blue Peter



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

goslow wrote:
I don't know all about the fine points of this issue but I suspect that the NMW in itself is not a big factor in current youth unemployment. More like poor education, unwillingness to relocate etc


I suspect that it's more that there aren't the jobs,


Peter.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TB
Thats the arguement made by its proponants.
"We proposed it as the point where it wont cause any lost jobs".
Its bollocks.
Because any minimum always costs jobs.
I'd be happy to pay someone 1 to mow my lawn. I cant, therefore, lost job.

Of course, the people responsible for the minimum wage believe a job is something dont 9-5 monday to friday 16-21 till retirement.

Blue Peter
And why are there no jobs?
As above, if paid my neighbour 1 an hour to do my ironing, that would a job.
I would have to pay her 8, I wont, therefore, there is no job.
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goslow



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I get your point Dom, if someone is not relying on the income from a job for their living, then they could manage with less and offer their services on that basis. But when we look at the perspective of equal rights its generally agreed necessary now to pay someone who is part-time on the same hourly basis as someone who is full time (and relies on their salary for their living).

However, I see that under NMW apprentices under 19 can be paid as little as 2.50 an hour. So there are some allowances in the system. Also no NMW for anyone up to 16, they can do your lawn!
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
Would you pay someone 10 an hour to do your shopping?

So why do you expect anyone else too?

The minimum wage ignores the fact that some people simply arent worth much.


Well, it doesn't quite work like that. The minimum wage is already so low that for many people who are unemployed and on benefits there is no point in getting a job. 5.93 per hour, or whatever it is, doesn't earn most people enough in a week to live on - not when you take into account things like council tax and rent.

So what is the solution? You could say we should just cut benefits so it becomes more worthwhile people getting a job, but then I have to point out that there simply aren't enough jobs. What is UndercoverElephant worth? I have plenty of (actually useless) qualifications and I'm not stupid. People will actually pay me 40 per hour to identify wild fungi for them. But I can't get a normal job, even at the minimum wage, because there aren't enough jobs.

Quote:

But hey, Its not you who has to spend your life unemploywed because you cant get anyone to give you a chance.


If there's 3 million unemployed people and only 500,000 vacancies then 2.5 million will remain unemployed regardless of whether or not anybody would like to give them a chance.

If your solution is to pay each of those people only 2 per hour (lots more jobs!!!) then you are asking people to do a full week's work and end up with considerably less money than is required to fulfil their basic living requirements. At that point I suggest it would be entirely ethical for those people to turn to criminal activity in order to support themselves, on the grounds that they have been put into an impossible position by people like yourself.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:

I'm curious, what else should I be seeing?


What it looks like to the person you are suggesting earns 3 an hour.

Quote:

Is it better for someone to be unemployed, or earning 3 an hour and learning skills? Or god forbid, working without monetary compensation!


That depends what they are actually doing. If they really are learning a useful skill then maybe it is justifiable for a while. More likely they will be doing something very menial and will stop learning after about 30 minutes, in which case it is better for them to be unemployed, unless you approve of slavery.

Quote:

In Biffs sick little world its virtueous to deny the disabled a chance to prove they are capable.


This is why people HATE the f*****g tories, Dom. It sounds like you are defending the disabled, but we all know what the net result of your policy would be. It would actually make the existing minimum wage irrelevant and force a whole sector of society into wage slavery. You imagine that somehow most of these people would only be at the bottom of the pile for a short while, on their journey to much better things. In reality most of those people will simply remain at the bottom of the pile, now forced to work for less money than is required for their basic living needs. And this is at the same time as the *ankers continue to pay themselves 500 per hour??? Where are your morals?

Quote:

Under the current regime, If you are not worth 7.23 an hour, thats it, you are unemployed forever.


The minimum wage in the UK is 5.93.

Quote:

Under a fair regime, you wopulod be allowed to work for whatever you are worth to your employer


Hmmm. Well, yes that's fair to the employer. It doesn't quite take account of the rest of society though.

Follow your argument to its natural conclusion and we'd end up with people in the UK being employed for 50p an hour.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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