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End of the Minimum Wage?
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
Is it just me or has Dom lost the plot?


Dom is looking at the world through the eyes of a Tory. Is this "having lost the plot?" It is usually the result of not having any real understanding of what it is like to be on the sharp end of Tory policies. You might argue that the tories never grasped the plot in the first place. This is the party that would, had it won the election outright, have slashed inheritance tax for the upper-middle class. No doubt Dominic would be here defending that move too, although God only knows how.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goslow wrote:

I don't know all about the fine points of this issue but I suspect that the NMW in itself is not a big factor in current youth unemployment. More like poor education, unwillingness to relocate etc


...and there not being enough jobs.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The minimum wage is, of course, an attempt to mitigate some of the evil of capitalism. The capitalist will always try to find ways round it.

A maximum wage would do the job even better. Say 10 per hour? That's well above the world average, enough to live well by and would prepare us for the post peak oil collapse.

Smile
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clv101
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
DominicJ wrote:
Under the current regime, If you are not worth 7.23 an hour, thats it, you are unemployed forever.

The minimum wage in the UK is 5.93.

The wage may be 5.93, but the cost to the employer is higher.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UE
Your arguement isnt based in reality though.

This isnt an aerguement between 30 an hour jobs and 3 an hour jobs.
Its an arguement between no job and a low paying job.

There are 500,000 vacancies AT 8+ an hour.

We dont know how many vacancies there are at 3 an hour because its illegal to ask.

Quote:
If your solution is to pay each of those people only 2 per hour (lots more jobs!!!) then you are asking people to do a full week's work and end up with considerably less money than is required to fulfil their basic living requirements

*I* am not asking anyone to do anything
YOU are denying people the option.

Quote:
That depends what they are actually doing. If they really are learning a useful skill then maybe it is justifiable for a while. More likely they will be doing something very menial and will stop learning after about 30 minutes, in which case it is better for them to be unemployed, unless you approve of slavery.


The most important things I got from my first job were knowledge of how a Printer/Copier/Fax works and proof that I could turn up on time 95 days out of 100.
Money was irrelevent.

Quote:
In reality most of those people will simply remain at the bottom of the pile, now forced to work for less money than is required for their basic living needs.

As opposed to now, where they are forced to beg from the state for basic living needs?

Quote:
Where are your morals?

Firmly in my life, if you only you'd stop enforcing yours on me....

Quote:
The minimum wage in the UK is 5.93.

Add an 8% holiday entitlement, add 13% Employers National insurance, ect.
I was chatting to friends partner over the BBQ last bankholiday.
He wants to start up his own accounts firm in the new year, I semi jokingly said, "Oh I'll be looking for work in March" and his response was "No employees, but I might subcontract"

Quote:
Follow your argument to its natural conclusion and we'd end up with people in the UK being employed for 50p an hour.

Some, quite possibly.
Again, I fail to see your point?
Your argueing its better to begger than a low paid employee.

Quote:
Dom is looking at the world through the eyes of a Tory. Is this "having lost the plot?" It is usually the result of not having any real understanding of what it is like to be on the sharp end of Tory policies.

I grew up in a single parent family, my dad walked out 91/92, poverty is just a word to you.
I lived it.



No one, for all their preaching, is yet to expalin why its better to beg for pennies than earn them?
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Blue Peter



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
TB
Blue Peter
And why are there no jobs?
As above, if paid my neighbour 1 an hour to do my ironing, that would a job.
I would have to pay her 8, I wont, therefore, there is no job.

Unfortunately, 1 an hour isn't enough to live on in this country, so it's not really a job,


Peter.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your not really explaining how 1 an hour is worse than 0 an hour....
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:

Your argueing its better to begger than a low paid employee.


Actually I'm arguing that if you're being that badly shafted by an immoral, unfair system then you are morally justified in turning to crime to finance your basic needs.

Quote:

I lived it.


Then why are you so enthusiastic about imposing it on others?

Quote:

No one, for all their preaching, is yet to expalin why its better to beg for pennies than earn them?


A system which allows parasitical bankers to earn hundreds of times what they actually need to live on even after they've bankrupted the nation, but also expects the people at the bottom of the pile to work for less than is required to live on is fundamentally immoral and unjust. You are offering me/them a choice between "begging" (i.e. benefits) and wage-slavery. I am responding by saying "**** you, **** the system, **** the tories, BRING IT DOWN." I am saying that I refuse to be manipulated by people like you into choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea whilst you and your tory chums try get inheritance tax scrapped for millionaires. There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said that man.
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goslow



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happened to come across this blog of a candidate in Philip Davies constituency last election, that publishes an email from the MP explaining his point of view on the NMW, it seems to be an ongoing thing of his

http://alexross.wordpress.com/
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then why are you so enthusiastic about imposing it on others?


Once again, I ask, where have I attempted to enforce anything on anyone?
I didnt grow up in poverty because my mother was incapable of work, I grew up in poverty because my mother was prevented from working, activly, by the government. Which threatened to kidnap her children if she did not surrender her employment and beg.

Quote:
There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.

I'm not sure what your one woman revolution has to do with the minimum wage....
And just a forwarning, Scargill destroyed the British Coal, he didnt save it.
The rest of the world moved on, they will again. Leaving you behind, with your angry mob of illiterates.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:


Quote:
There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.

I'm not sure what your one woman revolution has to do with the minimum wage....


I'm male, and if you push the British public hard enough they will eventually revolt.

Quote:

And just a forwarning, Scargill destroyed the British Coal, he didnt save it.
The rest of the world moved on, they will again. Leaving you behind, with your angry mob of illiterates.


It's not often I'm described as illiterate. Smile

I'm sorry, but coming from a poor background doesn't excuse you for being a Tory, and thinking like a Tory.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm male, and if you push the British public hard enough they will eventually revolt.

Are you sure? I'm sure you've said you were a woman?
Rolling Eyes

I have no doubt we will see rioting in the next few years. And? I diont see where youre going with this. Scargills war destroyed coal mining, it didnt save it.
We've seen multiple revolutions in the middle east, Greece and Spain are both facing quasi revolutionary general strikes.
They're rioting until they get better paid jobs, everyone on here is quite rightly of the opinion that the current governments or any newly installed governments have no ability to meet those demands.

Riot, I've got a sister in the States, I've apparently got some cousins in Oz, I've got a few friends in the US who's be quite happy to put up me and my girlfriend effectivly indefinatly.
SHTF, I can leave

Quote:
It's not often I'm described as illiterate. Smile

You're not illiterate, SHTF, can you leave? So who will be left in the UK with rioting mobs demanding the world gives them a free ride?

Quote:
I'm sorry, but coming from a poor background doesn't excuse you for being a Tory, and thinking like a Tory.

I think you rather miss the point, One of the two of us grew up in actual poverty. Why do you think you can preach to me about what people who grew up in poverty want? Or whats the best way to get out of poverty?

For my first accounts job, I earnt 5 an hour, and that included holiday pay, so I actualy earnt 4.63 an hour. That wasnt that long ago, it was certainly after I was 18 and after the minimum wage was over 5 an hour.
Now, I earn considerably more than minimum wage.

If I hadnt taken that job, which was illegal remember, I might still be unemployed. I'd applied for hundreds of jobs, received dozens of interviews, and everytime, "not enough experience" and a rejection.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
Quote:
I'm male, and if you push the British public hard enough they will eventually revolt.

Are you sure? I'm sure you've said you were a woman?
Rolling Eyes




Quote:

I have no doubt we will see rioting in the next few years. And?


...and dead bankers, hopefully.

Quote:

Scargills war destroyed coal mining, it didnt save it.
We've seen multiple revolutions in the middle east, Greece and Spain are both facing quasi revolutionary general strikes.
They're rioting until they get better paid jobs, everyone on here is quite rightly of the opinion that the current governments or any newly installed governments have no ability to meet those demands.


We can ritually behead some bankers though, and that will at least provide the public with some justice/entertainment.

Quote:

You're not illiterate, SHTF, can you leave?


I can't think of anywhere to go that will let me in, apart from maybe Ireland.

Quote:

So who will be left in the UK with rioting mobs demanding the world gives them a free ride?


I don't want a free ride. I want the parasitical bankers and corporate filth to stop having a free ride at my expense.

Quote:

Quote:
I'm sorry, but coming from a poor background doesn't excuse you for being a Tory, and thinking like a Tory.

I think you rather miss the point, One of the two of us grew up in actual poverty.


You seem to be under the impression that I come from a wealthy middle class background (as well as being female and hard left socialist, which I'm not either). My mother was the youngest child of 5 with an invalid father and grew up in the East End of London with absolutely nothing. My father's father ran a bicycle shop in Bromley. I'm first-generation lower-middle class.

Quote:

Why do you think you can preach to me about what people who grew up in poverty want? Or whats the best way to get out of poverty?


I find your politics obnoxious, Dominic. I don't like Tories. Never have done, never will. It's hard for this not to get personal. I guess that's why you aren't supposed to mention politics at parties, but powerswitch is not a party.

Quote:

Now, I earn considerably more than minimum wage.


Yeah, I bet you do.
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nexus



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm a realist and a hippie


love it Laughing
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