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End of the Minimum Wage?
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woodpecker



Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 851
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
http://listentotaxman.com/index.php


Golly, I'm kind of taken aback that someone CIMA-trained uses *that*. Or even knows of its existence.


That's a bit like the Queen of England admitting to have the phone number of a Hoxton prostitute in her bossom.
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DominicJ



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnB
They made us do a manual trial balance once, I feel for you. I have a calculator with a till roll, not used it in forever though

Woodpecker.
Quote:
You may or may not know that in many SMEs (up to several thousand people employed) the COO or FO or similar signs off the payroll.

Considering its the biggest expense in virtualy all SMEs, I'm not surprised.
I've worked in a place where we had to post any cheques over £500 off to the FD of the parent company.

Quote:
And that any board reviews both payroll and HMRC/taxes, as totals, as part of monthly review of management accounts sitting around the board table.

Perhaps they do, when did I declare myself as chairman of the board? Or indeed, sole provider of knowledge to the hallowed halls of power.

Quote:
Which is why I find it so strange that you seem to know nothing about what the average payroll rates are in the UK.

Why? Because I've said, "I've never never worked in payroll" at least once, just in thread?
My current employer just levies a flat fee of 20% on top of the actual wage cost to cover NI, Pensions, and presumably maternity, but I'd have to double check that. It may include HR, or may not.

Quote:
I mean a lot of people know what they are, right from clerk level to board level, and the chairman will definitely know. And yet you, doing your CBAs, and supposedly with CIMA, haven't got a clue??

Well I'm sorry if I disappointed you, but I have nothing to do with payroll and would very much like for that situation to remain unchanged.
I also have almost know knowledge of Corporation Tax, although have a passable knowledge of obscure VAT.

Quote:
Golly, I'm kind of taken aback that someone CIMA-trained uses *that*. Or even knows of its existence.

Why? Since I dont do anything professional with Payroll, its suitable for my needs.
I'm hardly stood with a restrained patient, a scalpal and heart surgery wiki....

Whats more disapointing is I didnt bother to actualy check on there if I was right or not.....

But all of this is drawing away from the key point that jobs are cost sensitive, and wages are a cost.

If the only cost to a business is Labour, if you can sell your labour service at £15 an hour, and hire Labour for £14.99, you can make a profit and its a sensible business decision, but if you must pay your Labour £15.01, you cannot make a profit, and so wouldnt do it.
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:
DominicJ wrote:
RC
...Your arguement is its better to force people to beg for pennies than allow them the CHOICE to earn them.
With the exception of the small number of low-paid jobs which offer genuine opportunities to better one's knowledge/training (as yours evidently did), that "choice" is an illusion. I think you fail to realise that your situation is atypical.


But your ham fisted "Government knows best" solution wouldnt recognise my situation was atypical
yes it would: it would be called an apprenticeship (or similar), and acknowledged to be temporary.

But more to the point, your outlook fails to take into account the cumulative effect on the "labour market" of lots of people all falling into a similar situation. It would depress wages and leave a lot of people at the lower end of the labour market unable to contribute anything to the economy, yet still working as hard as the rest of us.

NOW, if we had the Citizens' Income, your proposal would be perfect: any employer could offer a post for as little pay as they liked, anyone could accept it, both sides would know the other wasn't being exploited...and anyone could take up any job whenever they liked without having to worry about "losing benefits".
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SleeperService



Joined: 02 May 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
DominicJ wrote:

Your argueing its better to begger than a low paid employee.


Actually I'm arguing that if you're being that badly shafted by an immoral, unfair system then you are morally justified in turning to crime to finance your basic needs.

Quote:

I lived it.


Then why are you so enthusiastic about imposing it on others?

Quote:

No one, for all their preaching, is yet to expalin why its better to beg for pennies than earn them?


A system which allows parasitical bankers to earn hundreds of times what they actually need to live on even after they've bankrupted the nation, but also expects the people at the bottom of the pile to work for less than is required to live on is fundamentally immoral and unjust. You are offering me/them a choice between "begging" (i.e. benefits) and wage-slavery. I am responding by saying "**** you, **** the system, **** the tories, BRING IT DOWN." I am saying that I refuse to be manipulated by people like you into choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea whilst you and your tory chums try get inheritance tax scrapped for millionaires. There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.


+1

Why the fascination with the minimum wage? A fairer system would be to set a multiple of the lowest renumeration in a company including agency staff, cleaners EVERYBODY as the maximum that should be earnt. Thus everybody shares in success of their collective effort. Owners could still take a fair profit from the investment as they do now. This should include all the perks, share options the lot.

In the event of a decline in fortunes the same multiple should be applied to any reduction.

A bit radical and some areas like company cars for company use would need looking at but a much fairer system don't you think?
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DominicJ



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
NOW, if we had the Citizens' Income, your proposal would be perfect: any employer could offer a post for as little pay as they liked, anyone could accept it, both sides would know the other wasn't being exploited...and anyone could take up any job whenever they liked without having to worry about "losing benefits".


I frequently suggest that the Welfare, Pensions and Healthcare systems are scrapped, and instead replaced with a direct cash payout, with starter payments based on age given, and the Education budget given to everyone under 21.


The usual response is bleary eyed repetition of "I heart the NHS"

Sleeper Service
The rich will leave to a place where they will be properly remunerated.
Bono is a tax resident of the netherlands....
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SleeperService wrote:

Why the fascination with the minimum wage? A fairer system would be to set a multiple of the lowest renumeration in a company including agency staff, cleaners EVERYBODY as the maximum that should be earnt. Thus everybody shares in success of their collective effort.


This scheme was adopted by the Bader group and promoted by Fritz Schumacher a long time ago. I think their multiple was 7. Many of the world's ills would evaporate under such a system.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
RenewableCandy wrote:
NOW, if we had the Citizens' Income, your proposal would be perfect: any employer could offer a post for as little pay as they liked, anyone could accept it, both sides would know the other wasn't being exploited...and anyone could take up any job whenever they liked without having to worry about "losing benefits".


I frequently suggest that the Welfare, Pensions and Healthcare systems are scrapped, and instead replaced with a direct cash payout, with starter payments based on age given, and the Education budget given to everyone under 21.

The usual response is bleary eyed repetition of "I heart the NHS"
With you on the welfare and pensions idea, not so Education or the NHS...private healthcare has all sorts of issues, apart from the obvious one of affordability which your arrangement addresses. And I can't even begin to describe the effect that even today's amount of "commercial thinking" is having on (university) education.
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energy-village



Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
The rich will leave to a place where they will be properly remunerated. Bono is a tax resident of the netherlands....


Being stinking rich doesn't seem to stop Bono’s heavy tax avoidance schemes. He's about to make $500m when Facebook is floated. Wonder who gave him the tip last year and invited him into the deal? He who sups with the devil . . .

Quote:
The Irish singer is believed to have invested £130 million into the social networking site last year, acquiring 1.5 per cent of the site. However, the value of his investment has soared to £485 million, after Facebook received a healthy injection of funding from Goldman Sachs and Digital Sky Technologies

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/facebook/8260313/Bonos-Facebook-investment-boosts-his-fortune.html
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RC
But we dont have commerical thinking.
We have fascist thinking, in the true sense of the word.

I think you should get the educatuion budget until you're 21, even if you drop out of school at 12.

Oxford isnt allowed to expand, Bolton isnt allowed to close. Thats not "commercial", thats insanity.
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energy-village



Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:
I think you should get the educatuion budget until you're 21, even if you drop out of school at 12.


It's an imaginative idea - it got me scratching my head. However I don't think it is practical. Most of the population don't go to university. The UK hasn't got the money to pay them NOT to go. If we did have the capital for that there are many better things to spend it on.

Or perhaps you are suggesting citizens can offer up their “education vouchers” for practical courses and to employers for apprenticeships, traineeships etc?

Inevitably some would choose to pocket the money and sit on their backsides until it ran out. Plus there’d be inevitable mass fraud. How many civil servants would we need to administer the scheme?
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EV
If you divided the education budget equaly amongst everyone aged 0-21, its roughly £5800 per year
Budget of £80bn, 650,000 births per year, 21 years.

If someone sits on their arse and spends it in the pub, thats their problem.

Quote:
Or perhaps you are suggesting citizens can offer up their “education vouchers” for practical courses and to employers for apprenticeships, traineeships etc?

Thats certainly one option, and for many students, it makes far more sense than spending two hours a week "learning" french.

The average British Child has £125,000 spent on their education.
A significant minority arent taught to read and write for that massive sum.

Quote:
Plus there’d be inevitable mass fraud.

Anymore than we currently have through tax credits?
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madibe



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The average British Child has £125,000 spent on their education.


.... or to look at it another way... about £7k a year to make sure that mum and dad can both partake fully of the full time employment opportunities that await in the marketplace, become fully fledged taxpayers, consumers and oil the wheels of commerce. Christ, with children out of school what would become of society?

Perish the thought. Wink

Of course it doesn't really work that way... for a lot, having children around the place to educate and entertain all day would spoil the daytime TV schedule. (Daily Hate type comment for editorial balance....)

Cool
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energy-village



Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maudibe wrote:
Quote:
The average British Child has £125,000 spent on their education.


.... or to look at it another way... about £7k a year to make sure that mum and dad can both partake fully of the full time employment opportunities that await in the marketplace, become fully fledged taxpayers, consumers and oil the wheels of commerce. Christ, with children out of school what would become of society?


£125,000 is a shocking sum given the results we get. Is it just an elaborate baby sitting scheme? There must be a better way.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

£125 000? Some people earn that much just for kicking a ball about a field in an afternoon or hitting a ball across a lawn for a couple of hours and spend that much on a car or a painting. Our government spends that much on exploding bombs in nanoseconds.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting Biff.....
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