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Palm kernel shells (moved from general forum)
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palmkernelseeds



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:23 pm    Post subject: Palm kernel shells (moved from general forum) Reply with quote

Having lived in Indonesia for the last 15 years I am interested to know the market for palm kernel sheels as a bio fuel in the UK.
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I am looking for infomation on Uk companies wanted to import biomass from Indonesia. I am British and lived in Indonesia for 15 years.
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ziggy12345



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most of the UK are fully aware that Palm oil destroys the planet faster than a Vogon space ship Very Happy
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although this does not answer your question, you should be aware that many people are opposed to the large scale use of imported biofuels for a variety of reasons, including

Local people kicked of land in order to clear it for palm oil or other biofuel plantations.

Soil becoming impoverished since the biomass is exported rather than being eaten locally by man or beast and waste returned to the soil.

Tends to increase food prices, hardly wise when many cant afford a proper diet already.

Does not reduce FF much if at all, although biofuels sound attractive as a replacement for FF, remember that a lot of oil is often used in growing, harvesting, treating, and then transporting the product long distances.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Although this does not answer your question, you should be aware that many people are opposed to the large scale use of imported biofuels for a variety of reasons, including

Local people kicked of land in order to clear it for palm oil or other biofuel plantations.

Soil becoming impoverished since the biomass is exported rather than being eaten locally by man or beast and waste returned to the soil.

Tends to increase food prices, hardly wise when many cant afford a proper diet already.

Does not reduce FF much if at all, although biofuels sound attractive as a replacement for FF, remember that a lot of oil is often used in growing, harvesting, treating, and then transporting the product long distances.


...and in the specific case of palm oil, devastation of one of the few remaining large pockets of rainforest, home of the Oran-utan.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Palm kernel shells Reply with quote

palmkernelseeds wrote:
Having lived in Indonesia for the last 15 years I am interested to know the market for palm kernel sheels as a bio fuel in the UK.


Welcome to PowerSwitch, palmkernelseeds.

I can think of only four posters on this website who would support your endeavour. However, feel free to argue the merits of your products if you wish!
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palmkernelseeds



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:28 am    Post subject: Palm kernel shells Reply with quote

I cannot comment on the opinion of UK citizens as I have not lived in the Uk for 15 years.

Palm Kernel Seeds in Indonesia is used by cement factories instead of steam coal on a small scale, but eventually will replace steam coal. Small companies power has gone from steam coal to charcoal briquette to PKS.

Spain and Poland are now investing heavily in biomass and PKS is at the front of these investments.

This week I will be visiting Riau and into Dumai port visiting plantations. We have one Spanish buyer that needs 40,000 tons of PKS every month.

There are other biomass products that we will export next year such as rice husk briquettes and as I am British, would like to have some business in the UK.

In the future what biomass products will the UK use?
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that large scale biomass burning will be viable in the UK, imports are best avoided for the reasons given above and also adversely affect the countries balance of payments.

Small scale wood burning is viable for some domestic heating, we need wood for construction etc, and the less good bits may as well be burnt.
Woodland is good for amenity reasons, so why not harvest some for firewood.

Small scale production of biodiesel might be justified for farm use, after all growing a little biodiesel for a tractor is no worse than growing oats to feed horses.

I dont think that we have land enough for large scale use.

PV modules placed atop buildings take up no extra land.
Wind turbines take up very little land.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a large number of biomass plants planned in the UK and funnily enough they are nearly all situated on the coast in sea ports. When planning permission for these plants is applied for there are always large numbers of objections from environmentalists. They cannot see the sense in tearing down rain forest and releasing far more carbon in the process from the burnt trees and the carbon release from the peaty soils which are disturbed in order to plant palm oil than will ever be saved by burning the biomass which will be grown.

You may see Palm Seed Kernels as a business opportunity but most people on this website see it as utter folly at the least and a criminal act at the worst. When Spain goes bust in a few months time your contract will probably go with it so don't rely on that money for anything. And Poland thinks it is going to have Europe's largest deposit of shale gas so they won't be buying much either.

Oh! Welcome to the website.
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palmkernelseeds



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Palm Kernel Shells Reply with quote

Dear Members,

Thanks for all your comments so far.

Spain is actually giving start up package for biomass products imported through some ports (not all of Spain) we have a Spannish office in Valencia. The economic situation in all Europe is bad and same in the USA.

I cannot disagree with comments that palm oil plantations are using negative practises to make a profit, but people have to eat in Indonesia there are no social services. While that is not a perfect solution we do directly and indirectly employ around a thousand people in our businesses so they are able to take care of themselves. I also give free seminars to a foundation in high schools promoting entrepreneurship. So it is not all about making a profit.

To be honest I used to have the same opinion as your members 15 yrs ago, but have travelled to many countries and seen people sleeping on the streets I am not the pure environmentalist I used to be.

While we may have different opinions I appreciate all your members comments.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Palm Kernel Shells Reply with quote

palmkernelseeds wrote:
Dear Members,

Thanks for all your comments so far.

Spain is actually giving start up package for biomass products imported through some ports (not all of Spain) we have a Spannish office in Valencia. The economic situation in all Europe is bad and same in the USA.

I cannot disagree with comments that palm oil plantations are using negative practises to make a profit, but people have to eat in Indonesia there are no social services. While that is not a perfect solution we do directly and indirectly employ around a thousand people in our businesses so they are able to take care of themselves. I also give free seminars to a foundation in high schools promoting entrepreneurship. So it is not all about making a profit.

To be honest I used to have the same opinion as your members 15 yrs ago, but have travelled to many countries and seen people sleeping on the streets I am not the pure environmentalist I used to be.


Your honesty is appreciated.

Far be it for me to encourage export of biomass (the long term consequences are disastrous) but, for the purposes of acquiring customers for it, you're enquiring on the wrong forum here, really.

However, keep posting and discussing here; an Indonesian perspective on resource depletion and how it is being dealt with would be educational.
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lurker



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are plans for biomass plants all over the uk so its probably will be a good market for your product.....

Also alot of probably justified enviromental & nimby objections though. Map of all proposed sites on this link:

http://www.biofuelwatch.org.uk/biomass_map/

I think most will be built due to the looming energy gap uk is facing even with the opposition againt them.
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palmkernelseeds



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:07 pm    Post subject: Palm kernel shells Reply with quote

I will be visiting plantations this week in Riau so I believe it would assist your forum if I posted some photos and give an honest assessment of this industry in Indonesia.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Palm Kernel Shells Reply with quote

palmkernelseeds wrote:
..... I cannot disagree with comments that palm oil plantations are using negative practises to make a profit, but people have to eat in Indonesia there are no social services. .....


How many people are thrown off their land, where they gain a living by subsistence agriculture within the forest, so that the forest can be burned and the land replanted with oil palms so that a few rich people can make even more money? And that doesn't even take account of the loss of wildlife habitat.

We see this argument deployed about Africa to convince us that it is right for us to buy out of season vegetables grown there and flown into the UK instead of them growing food for themselves. So much water is exported in these vegetables that it is lowering water tables and Africans can't feed themselves. In many cases the profits go to rich, white Africans rather than the poorer, local people.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Palm Kernel Shells Reply with quote

palmkernelseeds wrote:

I cannot disagree with comments that palm oil plantations are using negative practises to make a profit, but people have to eat in Indonesia there are no social services.


With respect, that's not our problem. It's Indonesia's problem.

People who want to sell things to the British public are now well aware that the public is aware of the problems caused by palm plantations in Indonesia. If they are using Indonesian palm oil, for anything, then it is likely to hit their sales if/when the public finds out about it.

As for biofuels being a solution to the problems of peak oil....it isn't, especially if they have to be imported from the other side of the planet.


Quote:

While that is not a perfect solution we do directly and indirectly employ around a thousand people in our businesses so they are able to take care of themselves. I also give free seminars to a foundation in high schools promoting entrepreneurship. So it is not all about making a profit.


We aren't bothered about your profits. We are bothered about the damage to the forest and the animals that live there.
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lurker



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems abit hypocritical to lecture other countries about preserving there forests after the u.k has destroyed virtually all its own wildlife & habitats already & has alot larger C02 footprint per person than theese other places...
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