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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire
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kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11529
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
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 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | Seems abit hypocritical to lecture other countries about preserving there forests after the u.k has destroyed virtually all its own wildlife & habitats already & has alot larger C02 footprint per person than theese other places... |
But we have to discourage people from making the same mistakes as us and we have to give a good example, something which we are not doing very well when the evidence is examined.
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Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez |
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UndercoverElephant
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10425
Location: south east England
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | Seems abit hypocritical to lecture other countries about preserving there forests after the u.k has destroyed virtually all its own wildlife & habitats already & has alot larger C02 footprint per person than theese other places... |
No, that would only be hypocritical if I was one of the people who'd chopped down the UK's forests. The reality is that most of those trees were felled centuries ago. I think we have a moral duty to protect what remains of our ancient woodlands and to allow them to regenerate and grow around their edges, as well as to plant new trees. Unfortunately most of that land is in private hands...
We can only be held responsible for things we have done ourselves, or things we can change, not what our ancestors did or things we can't do anything about. |
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ziggy12345
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1235
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We can only be held responsible for things we have done ourselves, or things we can change, not what our ancestors did or things we can't do anything about. |
Well that's bollocks. We are continually being held responsable for things that have happened in the past and for things we didnt do.
I didnt lend any money to Greece but my bank charges have gone up.
We can only deal with any given situation as it is presented to us and solve it to the best of our advantage no matter how it came about |
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biffvernon
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18541
Location: Lincolnshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ziggy12345 wrote: |
I didnt lend any money to Greece but my bank charges have gone up. |
You bank with the Co-op or Triodos then?
I think we ought to share in the responsibility for the actions of the banks we chose to lend money to. We do have a choice and by using that choice wisely we can effect the change.
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palmkernelseeds
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Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Indonesia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: My trip to Sumatra |
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I have read the comments from other members while I have been travelling.
A brief report on what I saw.
Travelling from Pekanbaru to Dumai is 188 km it took 8 hours the roads are very bad and many trucks carring palm fruits to be processed. Some of the land has been burned and nothing will ever grow there again. In fact the only thing that can grow is palm oil trees. All along the roads are palm oil trees ready for collection to be taken to a factory for processing.
One palm oil tree will produce for 21 yrs as an investment the return is high.
Factories are producing thousands of tons of palm fruits everyday, the plantations are enormous.
The serious buyers are not from Asia, but Europe and we heard of two buyers from the UK. There is a Poland investment for Palm Kernel Shells in Dumai.
Conclusion.
This business will get bigger and not smaller. The UK might not be a big importer, but business will increase.
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I am looking for infomation on Uk companies wanted to import biomass from Indonesia. I am British and lived in Indonesia for 15 years. |
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postie
Joined: 06 Nov 2010
Posts: 445
Location: Bishop's Stortford
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: My trip to Sumatra |
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| palmkernelseeds wrote: | | Some of the land has been burned and nothing will ever grow there again. |
Burning can be natural process and forests not only recover but thrive.
Anyhows, while I don't know enough about Palm oil and the effects of it, it seems to me the justifications you've posted above could be just as true of say... hmmm.. slavery ... or clearing rainforests in Brazil for cattle ranching.
An explanation, or worse, a high profit margin doesn't make it right. 
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Learn to whittle now... we need a spaceship! |
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UndercoverElephant
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10425
Location: south east England
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ziggy12345 wrote: | | Quote: | | We can only be held responsible for things we have done ourselves, or things we can change, not what our ancestors did or things we can't do anything about. |
Well that's bollocks. We are continually being held responsable for things that have happened in the past and for things we didnt do.
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And I will argue against those things every time. Yes, there are some people who think I ought to apologise for slavery. I think they are idiots. I came into this world free of guilt. I suspect those who think otherwise have been influenced by Christian doctrine, either directly or indirectly.
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I didnt lend any money to Greece but my bank charges have gone up.
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That's not moral responsibility for the lending of money to Greece. That's just the bankers dodging their own responsibility and leaving their poo-poo for the rest of society to clean up. |
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emordnilap
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14569
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| UndercoverElephant wrote: | | ziggy12345 wrote: | | Quote: | | We can only be held responsible for things we have done ourselves, or things we can change, not what our ancestors did or things we can't do anything about. |
Well that's bollocks. We are continually being held responsable for things that have happened in the past and for things we didnt do.
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And I will argue against those things every time. Yes, there are some people who think I ought to apologise for slavery. I think they are idiots. I came into this world free of guilt. I suspect those who think otherwise have been influenced by Christian doctrine, either directly or indirectly. |
Interesting, UE. What's your position on having benefited from slavery, which it's arguable all of us have? Humour me, I'm willing to learn your point of view.
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I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker |
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kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11529
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| UndercoverElephant wrote: | | I came into this world free of guilt. I suspect those who think otherwise have been influenced by Christian doctrine, either directly or indirectly. |
I seen to remember a quote from my religious Instruction classes along the lines of "Let not the sins of the fathers be visited upon the children."
Unfortunately in most African countries the leaders, who in the old days would have sold their subjects into slavery to Arab traders who in turn sold them to the British and others, are still screwing the population over but now put the money stolen into Swiss banks. When the African leaders, the Arabs and the Swiss *ankers apologise I think it might be appropriate for us to apologise. But then it was us British who saw the error of our ways and abolished slavery.
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Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez |
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lurker
Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:39 am Post subject: Biomass Power Station Will Burn Palm Kernel Shells |
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| Quote: | | This 49 megawatt station designed by British designer Thomas Heatherwick should be able to power at least 50,000 homes using palm kernel shells, which are a by-product of palm oil plantations. |
http://www.thegoodhuman.com/2011/07/28/biomass-power-station-burns-palm-kernel-shells/
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Every time you spend money,you're casting a vote for the kind of world you want.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" -Napoleon Bonaparte |
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11529
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Greenwash if you ask me. It may look "gorgeous" but it's fired on stuff bought half way around the world in a ship burning the dirtiest oil possible from a place where they've just evicted the natives and fauna to burn virgin rain forest to make space to plant the palm oil tree monoculture from whence the palm kernel shells came.
It doesn't say if the plant in a CHP plant but judging by the huge cooling tower shape in the middle of the plant it is not. So it will be sending 60% of the energy generated from the material bought half way round the world straight up the cooling tower to heat the already overheated atmosphere.
In a word - LUDICROUS!
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Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez |
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lurker
Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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I agree hardly a renwable green tech unless the use sail boats! Its a shame thats there has being nearly zero coverage of all theese new biomass schemes in the MSM for some reason. Maybe its just not something the general public are interested in.
Another thing is why not use them to generate the lecky in the countries they come from rather than ship them here.
http://205.254.135.24/countries/country-data.cfm?fips=ID
| Quote: | | Indonesia generates 86 percent of its electricity from conventional thermal sources (coal, gas, and oil) |
Just shows home cheap oil is distorting the market to make theese crazy ideas economically viable, when only the profitablity is taken into account not the enviromental cost.
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Every time you spend money,you're casting a vote for the kind of world you want.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" -Napoleon Bonaparte |
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UndercoverElephant
Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10425
Location: south east England
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| emordnilap wrote: | | UndercoverElephant wrote: | | ziggy12345 wrote: | | Quote: | | We can only be held responsible for things we have done ourselves, or things we can change, not what our ancestors did or things we can't do anything about. |
Well that's bollocks. We are continually being held responsable for things that have happened in the past and for things we didnt do.
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And I will argue against those things every time. Yes, there are some people who think I ought to apologise for slavery. I think they are idiots. I came into this world free of guilt. I suspect those who think otherwise have been influenced by Christian doctrine, either directly or indirectly. |
Interesting, UE. What's your position on having benefited from slavery, which it's arguable all of us have? Humour me, I'm willing to learn your point of view. |
I may have benefited from slavery, but that doesn't mean I'm guilty of any moral wrongdoing. How can I be held responsible for something that happened before I was born? This is Christian doctrine - the idea that all humans come into the world as sinners because of the mistakes of Adam and Eve, and the crimes of the rest of humanity. |
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emordnilap
Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14569
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙
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| Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| UndercoverElephant wrote: | | I may have benefited from slavery, but that doesn't mean I'm guilty of any moral wrongdoing. How can I be held responsible for something that happened before I was born? |
Fair enough. It's that benefit I'm questioning, really. We benefit today from the 'sins of our fathers'  and I'm interested in the moral take on that aspect.
Yes, you can't be held responsible for the actions of just about everyone, especially before you were born. But if, as is arguable, you continue to benefit from those actions?
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I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker |
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