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The GREEN DEAL thread
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: way out west

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mobbsey wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
TEQs would be far, far simpler and, leaving all the decision making to individual households

But there's a big difference between the economic imperative of higher prices and the economic imperative of artificially maintained higher tax/lower allowances (even if the politicians would implement them). You can't avoid higher prices, whilst you can avoid higher tax -- and consequently higher prices are a far more effective means of rationing than tax (e.g., look at the changing trend in UK driving since 2002/3!).

The TEQ's idea is great if you have a rationally operating and balanced market -- but now, and certainly in the future, we don't.


I'm not really sure I get you here mobbsey but here goes. TEQs could (possibly) raise the price of pollution, so people might look for cheaper alternatives. Thus, "higher prices are a far more effective means of rationing than tax"!
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, bit of a numpty report that one.

Not quite sure what you mean about TEQs, Mobbsey. TEQs are simple, transparent and provide a clear incentive to find ways of using less carbon based fuel. One of the key point, which David Fleming was particularly keen on, was that instead of putting the solution-finding into the hands of a small number of government officials, advisers, regulators and clip-board wielders, it unleashes the creative power of 20 million households and firms. Rather than a bloke from the council telling you how to insulate your house to qualify for some grant or rebate it says invent the best way of saving fuel that works for you in your particular circumstance and you will be richer (or at least less poor).

I think this is an aspect of TEQs that has not received enough attention.
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mobbsey



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I'm sussed on what TEQs are, and I talked to David about it a number of times.

However, and as I expressed to him, any system of accounting is open to manipulation. Also, we don't have a free set of options with which we can respond to the need to reduce consumption -- Building Regs., planning and intellectual property controls over technologies would still exist to obstruct people.

In an ideal world TEQs would be a simple way of giving people the freedom to adapt to limits, but that's not the world we have or -- given current political realities -- the type of world we'll have to work in. In contrast prices, driven by physical shortages, cannot be circumvented; as natural ecological limits they represent an unavoidable reality. What we have to tackle therefore is the effects of prices on those least able to pay them, and that's all about reskilling people and giving them the space to do the lower cost/lower impact alternatives.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the main problems to investment in domestic energy reduction is the perception by householders that they won't be in the house long enough to get their money back. This won't be addressed by TEQs. The Green Deal seeks to overcome this by taking away any initial investment and making the repayments a charge of the house itself.

This idea I am in full agreement with. The problem is with the method of financing and the calculation of the "economics". This has an effect on the ability of poorer people in private housing or rental to take up the GD although those in Housing Association properties are likely to be amongst the first to receive benefits.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mobbsey wrote:

However, and as I expressed to him, any system of accounting is open to manipulation.
For sure, where there's anything worth having there's a potential for crime. TEQs aren't more vulnerable than other form of transaction and a lot less than most.
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mobbsey
But you arent normal.
99% of the population want to be warm in their home for the lowest cost, they'd burn ethiopians if they were cheap and energy dense.

You need to stop thinking "what do I want" and start thinking "what do they want".

Ken
SIMTRA apperared to be a big green deal rent seeking organisation.

Quote:
There was a program on the box tonight about fuel poverty and one couple was sat there being interviewed while wearing t-shirts and complaining about the cost of gas!! I shouted at the screen!! Never mind. Yes, people's expectations must be drastically modified.

The mind boggles it truely does.
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A typical Victorian middle class bed had about 8 layers of sheets, blankets and eiderdowns. Even in the 70s I was cold through most of the winter in our drafty, uninsulated Victorian semi. We had night storage radiators and one coal fire. There was a constant fear of burst pipes. It was just normal.

On very cold mornings I was allowed to dress in front of an electric bar radiant heater.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:
A typical Victorian middle class bed had about 8 layers of sheets, blankets and eiderdowns.


Sounds like our bed (though one of the layers is an electric blanket).
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DominicJ wrote:

Quote:
There was a program on the box tonight about fuel poverty and one couple was sat there being interviewed while wearing t-shirts and complaining about the cost of gas!! I shouted at the screen!! Never mind. Yes, people's expectations must be drastically modified.

The mind boggles it truely does.
It's the fault of some government eejit saying all living-rooms must be 21 degC and everything else, apparently including the garden, has to be above 18. It's 16 in Chateau Renewable at the mo and that's only because the offspring have knocked off early from school. This morning it was 14 but I was doing a spot of housework (sawing up wood, wrestling with laundry etc) so I wasn't cold Smile
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might have to have a play and see what temperature my house actualy is
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RalphW wrote:

On very cold mornings I was allowed to dress in front of an electric bar radiant heater.
Gah yer soft Southern git Smile
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ujoni08



Joined: 03 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:40 pm    Post subject: temperatures Reply with quote

Agreed with RC. When working around the place, no heating needed. When in couch potato mode, heating on a short while, then leave off. 17 in living room, dressed warmly, is fine. Heating off all night, natch. The lowest temperature I've seen so far this Winter in the house is 15.7 one morning. That's after a few days without switching on the heating. Just cooking heat, body heat, etc and MASSES of insulation (1250mm in loft). Each window and door has five thermal barriers (double glazing, bubble-wrap drapes, heavy fleece drapes, curtains) Smile
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A free issue of merino wool base-layers would be more effective than the winter fuel allowance.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooooh, BRING IT ON!!!
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DominicJ



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing with my heating a lot recently (promted when I was told apparently its better to have a condensing boiler running low, not hot as I thought).

At the moment I'm trying the timer on pretty much 24 hours a day, a thermostat at about 25*, and the water temp at about 40*.

Its just a bit awkward trying to measure anything, because the temperature outside is so variable.
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