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Companies going bankrupt/into administration
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 12669
Location: York

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I detect a touch of Spengler here but I too have often wondered if there's a finite number of permutations of the 12 notes of the scale, and if so have we already reached it? Perhaps we might have to branch out into Indian/M.E.-type music with its 1/4tones (24 notes to the octave)? Perhaps that's what originally inspired people like George Harrison??
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snow hope



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with everything being said about music having no creativity nowadays, although I love the "old" stuff too. Very Happy

What about recent music from bands like Snow Patrol, Muse, Foo Fighters, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Kings of Leon, System of a Down, Queens of the Stone Age, etc. These are some that come to mind.

Mind you I ocassionally play in a band that does songs by Wilson Pickett, Sam Cooke, Otis Reading, Jame Brown, Arethra Franklin..... Very Happy Embarassed
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Ludwig



Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
I detect a touch of Spengler here but I too have often wondered if there's a finite number of permutations of the 12 notes of the scale, and if so have we already reached it?

More or less, I think we have. On the other hand, there are many different ways of arranging and harmonising; also, each singer has their own unique personality. But on the whole I think we are well into the domain of just repeating what's been done before.

Quote:

Perhaps we might have to branch out into Indian/M.E.-type music with its 1/4tones (24 notes to the octave)? Perhaps that's what originally inspired people like George Harrison??


Maybe... but the effect is different. The 12-tone scale is based on fundamental physical harmonic principles; there are only so many intermediate tones you can introduce before it all becomes meaningless from an emotional - as opposed to technical - point of view.

An excellent book about the "meaning" of musical intervals is "The Language of Music" by Deryck Cooke. His ideas were, and have remained, unfashionable - namely that emotional response to musical harmonics is pretty much universal, and corresponds to fundamental physical principles.

So, Indian music does have quarter tones, but these are nevertheless derived from the same full tones that Western music uses. Chinese music goes the other way: it uses the pentatonic scale, i.e. a subset of the notes used in Western music, but nevertheless governed by the same harmonic principles.

The idea that musical harmonics represent a psychological "fundamental" is supported by the fact that animals seem to respond to music as well. Mozart increases cows' milk yields. And my parents' cat used to sit between the speakers when his favourite folk music was being played.
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Last edited by Ludwig on Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ludwig



Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the_lyniezian wrote:

That's part of what I meant. As time wears on, and particularly this goes for certain 'genres', it seems to become harder to become creative and actually produce something most people are inclined to listen to. Like oil, it becomes harder to 'extract' worthwhile creativity, and you end up with a lower grade of output.


Nice metaphor sir.

Quote:

This goes in part from observations on how 'classical' music- and parhaps to some extent jazz- seems to have become more avant-garde as time went on, and (for me at least) less easy to listen to.

Definitely true IMO. Modern classical music may be technically interesting, but the more "interesting" it is, the less likely it is to pass the "would you actually want to listen to it?" test. Gimme Mozart or Beethoven any day.

Quote:

I certainly agree with you in not being quite to bothered in finding new music when good older stuff is plentiful, though it's sometimes worth hoping. I may not listem to the same artists as you, though.


I find last.fm is quite good for finding new music... Though much of the "new" music I get recommended turns out to be from the 1970s, which rather supports your argument.

Quote:

There is another, more serious facet to my 'peak music' hypothesis- that as technology progressed, music became more and more available- but now, it's so ubiquitous, it's become cheap, and demand for it as an actual paid-for product has peaked and is declining. Fewer people can be bothered to pay money for an actual recording, so they pirate, and fewer people are lesss likely to actually go out and listen to music when they can listen to it at home or on the move via [insert preferred personal stereo device/euphamism here] or in the car.

"Everything is free now
That's what they say
Everything I ever done
Gotta give it away"
- Gillian Welch - ironically available to listen to for free at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFle2YoQwWg

Quote:

For a physical peak, we'd have to actually wait for some sort of decline/collapse in energy terms at least. As long as there is electricity to power our devices...


One of the few advantages I can think of to power-down is that it would force me to resume playing the violin... well, an advantage for me; I dare say it would just be one more burden for other people.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hardly a high street name but Swiss oil refiner Petroplus, which owns the Coryton refinery in Essex, 10% of UK refining capacity, looks in trouble.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16432728
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SleeperService



Joined: 02 May 2011
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Location: Nottingham UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And another which is a household name Shocked

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/kodak-prepares-chapter-11-filing-193552809.html
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ziggy12345



Joined: 28 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blacks is going under.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16437888
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SleeperService



Joined: 02 May 2011
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Location: Nottingham UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ziggy12345 wrote:
Blacks is going under.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16437888


Blacks may have a buyer as it is profitable if you ignore the crippling debt. Unfortunately Millets have been unprofitable for a few years now so the future looks very bleak for them. There are a lot of companies held afloat by a profitable minority of activity.

As commented elsewhere this sell and leaseback is about to bite with a vengence Sad
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DominicJ



Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RenewableCandy wrote:
I detect a touch of Spengler here but I too have often wondered if there's a finite number of permutations of the 12 notes of the scale, and if so have we already reached it? Perhaps we might have to branch out into Indian/M.E.-type music with its 1/4tones (24 notes to the octave)? Perhaps that's what originally inspired people like George Harrison??


I always wondered who got to decide what C was, and why they picked that bit.
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madibe



Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get your tin foil hats ready...

concert pitch is all down to the NWO:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread322096/pg1
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madibe



Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

History of tuning...without the tinfoil hat...

http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_tuning_hist.html
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're just back from a tour of pretty northern towns, Skipton, Settle, Longridge, Ingleton, Kirby Lonsdale, and discovered that nobody has told them about the recession. We found not a single vacant shop except one in Skipton with a note on the door saying they'd just moved to bigger premises round the corner.
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madibe



Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Super low overheads Biff?

Lots of those small shops have home above, or rented out flat - sort of offsets business rates somewhat. Holding a shop in Kendal is not going to cost an arm and a leg as it would in any major city center.

Also a one man show has probably got their finger on the pulse lots more than is possible with a chain. Chains can get stuffed into a corner before anyone in the organisation even realises they have a problem.

Long term though...there is only so much these small shops can pull in the belt. If supply costing goes up then they are going to have to increase prices...at which point customers stop paying if they are themselves on a shoestring. Tourists or not...

Just my views.
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That explains how it was that I came to have, in the 1970s, two tuning-forks, one labelled A 440 and the other labelled A 426.

And they've both gone missing... Tinfoil Hat
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lancasterlad



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
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Location: North Lancashire

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
We're just back from a tour of pretty northern towns, Skipton, Settle, Longridge, Ingleton, Kirby Lonsdale, and discovered that nobody has told them about the recession. We found not a single vacant shop except one in Skipton with a note on the door saying they'd just moved to bigger premises round the corner.

You weren't far from us Biff. You visited some lovely places which (apart from Longridge) are very touristy which probably helps keep them bouyant. Apart from Skipton, which has a good number of national chains, the other towns have lots of small traders that are well supported.
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