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proposed wood burner installation

 
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adam2
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: proposed wood burner installation Reply with quote

Friends want heating in case of utilty failure.
Wood burning, as simple as possible.
Is there any reason why a stove can not be installed set into an internal wall, with the rear surface of the stove flush with the far side of the wall.

The intention being to heat 2 rooms from one stove, the property is well insulated and a single small stove should be ample, and indeed might overheat one room if the heat was confined to that room.

The internal wall is structural and is made of concete blocks.
It would seem a simple matter to cut a hole in the wall, with the blockwork above supported by a lintel.
The rear surface of the stove would of course get very hot and would be protected by a fixed metal mesh gaurd to avoid risk of fire from articles being placed to close to it.

To avoid damage by differential expansion it would seem advisable to leave a small gap between the stove and the building structure, this being latter filled with some resilient but fire proof material such as fibre glass.

There is no chimney in the proposed location, but it looks simple to build one.

An unusuall feature of the building is that the wall in question continues up through the loft, and supports the ridge of the roof. This design being chosen for maximum strength in a very exposed location.
It would seem simple to build a brick or concrete block chimney attached to this wall, both in the room and up through the loft space.

I dont see why this cant be done, but have never seen or heard of it being done, which makes me a bit doubtfull.


Last edited by adam2 on Mon May 21, 2012 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam, there are stoves which can be accessed (or in which the fire itself is visible) from both sides, for these 'open plan' rooms. Might be worth a look. See here, here and here for examples.

The back of our stove doesn't get particularly hot, as there is a back boiler in it plus there is a thin steel plate 'tidying it up' (the riddle arm etc).

Anyway, sounds like an interesting project, one where you can let your imagination run riot.
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emord I thought of the 2-faced-type stove as well, with a gap so the top of the stove's accessible (so you can cook on it), but this is a structural wall and I'd guess you'd want as little disturbance in it as possible because of the weight it has to bear.

Mind you, shoving in an RSJ over the top of the hole might make up for that.
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snow hope



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And instead of having to build a chimney you can just use a metal flue which can/will give off more heat and no doubt be easier to install and be cheaper. Smile
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JohnB



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

snow hope wrote:
And instead of having to build a chimney you can just use a metal flue which can/will give off more heat and no doubt be easier to install and be cheaper. Smile

Less expensive rather than cheaper. Have you seen the prices? Shocked
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There isn't any problem with that proposal, Adam. Any structural lintel should be at least 50 mm from the stove but check with the manufacturer. The fact that it is a structural wall isn't a problem as the opening will be comparatively small and the brickwork will bridge above it. The lintel effectively only holds up a triangle of brickwork above the opening but you would calculate for the whole load up to, and including, the roof.

The treatment of the opening, how big it is and how close to the stove, will depend on whether the owners want two single rooms or an element of open plan. It's up to them.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, definatly not open plan !
One room is the main living room, and the other is a workshop/office and store, but also serves as a spare bedroom.

They propose to leave a gap between the stove and the building structure, and fill this with fibreglass, coated with lime plaster.
The opening in the structural wall being bridged by an RSJ

The stove has no back boiler, so the rear surface should get hot.
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JohnB



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
They propose to leave a gap between the stove and the building structure, and fill this with fibreglass, coated with lime plaster.

That will stop heat being absorbed by the wall. My stove has only been in use for a few days, but the thermal mass of the walls is already storing some heat. The stone above my fireplace was radiating some heat a good 12 hours after the stove went out last night.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnB wrote:
adam2 wrote:
They propose to leave a gap between the stove and the building structure, and fill this with fibreglass, coated with lime plaster.

That will stop heat being absorbed by the wall. My stove has only been in use for a few days, but the thermal mass of the walls is already storing some heat. The stone above my fireplace was radiating some heat a good 12 hours after the stove went out last night.


Quite. Same in our house, the temperature is quite good during the day in winter with no fire because of the stone surround having absorbed so much heat the night before.

If the situation where adam2 is working was no-holds-barred, I'd be thinking of some kind of masonry stove or at least utilising the concrete wall as a heat store.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'd leave the smallest gap possible to allow for expansion. My stove has a few inches each side, and it heats up the side walls of the fireplace. If you want to keep the rooms separated, put some of the asbestos sheet replacement stuff (can't remember the name) across the gap, and lime plaster that. Keep the plaster moist if doing it while the stove is alight, so it dries slowly.
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SleeperService



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the wall is built of concerete blocks the effectiveness as a heat store could vary wildly. What sort of blocks are they?

The modern lightweight ones are pretty useless as a heat store, the chimney may be a better idea and would heat upstairs as well?
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This installation has now been completed.

A suitable hole was cut in the structural wall, with the opening bridged by a couple of reinforced concrete lintels.
The stove was placed such that the rear of the stove is flush with the rear of the wall.
The flue is of steel pipe and exits from the rear, that is into the room behind the stove.
The flue pipe ascends to about 1.8 M above floor level, where it is connected into a newly built brick chinmey.
The base of the brick chimney is supported on a concrete lintel about 1.8M above floor level, this being supported by brick piers or columns built out from the original wall, each side of the stove and flue pipe.
The rear of the stove and lower part of the flue pipe are protected by a decorative wrought iron screen or guard to prevent flammables being placed near. This can be removed for flue sweeping.
It is considered that all this extra brickwork will add to thermal mass and retain warmth.

Both rooms are well heated by the arrangement, and the rear flue gives enough room for basic cooking.
The structural opening into which the stove fits is about 150mm larger than the stove, with the gap each side filled with decorative, non structural brick work, apart from a very small gap of a few mm to allow for expansion, the thickness of this brick work is only a single brick, so as not unduly obstruct the heat output. The gap between the underside if the lintel and the top of the stove is closed by a steel plate, that can be removed if needed.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UPDATE TIME

Apart from brief testing, the stove has now seen its first use due to the sudden cold weather.
The stove lit and burnt fine, and did "exactly what it said on the box"

The increase in room temperature was initialy a dissapointment, but to me not suprising on account of the great thermal mass that had got cold.
After a few days days use, the room temperatures were fine.
For the first few days, the fire was lit early morning and kept alight all day, but now that the building is warmed up, lighting in the afternoon should suffice.
With outside air temperatures in single figures and a very exposed site, interior temperatures have averaged 23 in the room with stove and 20 in the room onto which it backs.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ANOTHER UPDATE

Working well in the recent severe weather.
The stove is lit every day usually mid-morning and kept alight till late evening. Firewood is purchased very cheaply indeed and some is found for free.
last week about 100KG of wood was used, mainly harvested silver birch, and mixed firewood from a sawmill.

The original intention was that this stove would see only limited use, it was intended as a doomer prep not as the daily means of heating.
It was presumed that the originall electric storage heaters would remain in use whilst times are normal.
In fact the stove is used daily and the storage heaters in the two rooms are turned off, but can be used if needed.
The bedrooms remain electricly heated, but only to a modest temperature at little expense.

At my suggestion, the 2 rooms heated by the stove have each been equiped with a 3KW electric heater controlled by a time switch. This runs the heaters each morning from 07-00 until 07-55 in order to preheat the spaces using very cheap night rate electricity.

I do not consider the insulation truly sufficient and will start a new thread re this.
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