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Badger Cull
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just watching the spring Kansas cattle auction on the farm channel network. Boy things have changed. They are selling lots of cattle from 60 to 450 head in a lot sorted by sex, weight, and hide color, by looking at video tape of the animals where they are now. The auction is going to sell 40,000 head in the next two days. 600 Lb, black steer calves were selling for $210/ cwt.
So lots (herds ) get moved from the range they wintered on in Wyoming, Idaho and Utah directly to the feed lots without going to a central auction barn so they have less chance of spreading disease in transit.
Some very nice cattle in excellent condition were being sold today.
You guys have anything similar in the Euro market?
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
directly to the feed lots


Where I guess they are ruined as a source of nutrition by being fed grains instead of grass. It ain't natural, but what has it got to do with badgers?
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
Incidentally, for those of you who don't want to look up my quote, the top ten foods high in Vit B12 are all meat, fish or dairy apart from fortified grains and fortified soy.


Out of the 10 foods in the quote, two have a question mark as to their overall benefit (I am being diplomatic here). Soy (Tofu) and low fat milk. Anyone is welcome to eat them, but I wouldn't.


You're being very kind to fortified grains (bran) too!
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
...

You guys have anything similar in the Euro market?


No! We haven't descended that far yet!



Woodburner, it has got about s much to do with badgers as sources of vitamin B12. Very Happy
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
directly to the feed lots


Where I guess they are ruined as a source of nutrition by being fed grains instead of grass. It ain't natural, but what has it got to do with badgers?

Oh not much. I just thought Ken might have a comment.
We also have badgers and TB plus brucellosis to worry about but every rancher has a rifle and will not hesitate to kill anything that might infect or harm his herd.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was ignoring the fortified bran as it doesn't really class as food, well I don't think it does. This applies IMO to grains in general for use as food for humans. My favoured approach is grass fed meat, unpasteurised milk, loads of cream and cheese and cholesterol can get stuffed, at least as a claimed medical problem, because it isn't. See "The Great Cholesterol Con" by Malcolm Ke.........

https://rosemarycottageclinic.wordpress.com/tag/malcolm-kendrick/
There is a video part way down.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
directly to the feed lots


Where I guess they are ruined as a source of nutrition by being fed grains instead of grass. It ain't natural, ....

If a cow gets into a wheat or corn field near harvest time it will happily chow down on the rich food source.
The feed lot feeds him a carefully balanced mix of feed and roughage designed for him to gain weight as fast as possible. All the feed lot really dose is to let the cow off from roaming all over the range looking for food. Not doing that exercise makes him fat lazy and tender. Smile
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
woodburner wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
directly to the feed lots


Where I guess they are ruined as a source of nutrition by being fed grains instead of grass. It ain't natural, but what has it got to do with badgers?

Oh not much. I just thought Ken might have a comment.
We also have badgers and TB plus brucellosis to worry about but every rancher has a rifle and will not hesitate to kill anything that might infect or harm his herd.


Sadly this is the central theme of most agriculture, kill everything, ................except what you are attempting to grow. Reason enough for agriculture to be described as The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:


Sadly this is the central theme of most agriculture, kill everything, ................except what you are attempting to grow. Reason enough for agriculture to be described as The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race.

Well if they had never made that mistake the world population would be so low that in all probability you and I would never have been born.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are trillions of people who were never born, none of us worry about that, and they certainly don't. So there's no problem. I suspect there are a few people around who think the world be a better place if I wasn't here. They're wrong, but they think it anyway.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
There are trillions of people who were never born, none of us worry about that, and they certainly don't. So there's no problem. I suspect there are a few people around who think the world be a better place if I wasn't here. They're wrong, but they think it anyway.
Interesting question. I can't think of a job I have done that would not have got done by somebody else if I wasn't there. No pyramids built or improvements to the human condition to my credit. Even the wife would have met someone else and raised a family if I had not been there at the right place and time. No in a world of seven billion people my existence is very very insignificant. Not saying I didn't pull my own weight but other then immediate family the world will not notice when I'm gone.
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Automaton



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Automaton, your first paragraph shows that you have little understanding of where many of us on this forum are coming from. We are saying that there will be MASSIVE die off throughout the world; that we could be taken back to 19th or even 18th century numbers and ways of life.


Actually, I do understand that. But I'm not sure you're fully considering the chaos that will be an early and lasting part of such a collapse, before things settle down into an 18th century way of life (if ever).

kenneal - lagger wrote:

Funnily enough also, the very food products that you abhor are the best source of Vitamin B12!
Quote:
Vitamin B12 can only be manufactured by bacteria and can only be found naturally in animal products(my bold)


I don't abhor these things, I just choose not to eat them for a good list of reasons. And yes, b12 is manufactured by bacteria, however it's incorrect to believe it can only be found naturally in animal products. The following link has a lot of fascinating information about the b12 situation, some of it quite shocking in fact (and also includes a couple of pro-organic comments you might like):

http://www.vibrancyuk.com/B12.html

kenneal - lagger wrote:

I would suggest that you learn those arts yourself or make friends with someone not so squeamish as you who can do it for you.


Been there and done that, kenneal. I've butchered my own food in the past, and I'm not squeamish about it at all. Maybe you could try listening to what I'm saying instead of jumping to old stereotypes for a moment. There are a host of very good reasons for not eating meat, or at least eating much much less. What meat we do eat, if we must, should at least be organic, and I'd like to think we can at least agree on that!

kenneal - lagger wrote:

The facts are that if we want an entirely natural diet we are going to have to eat some meat or dairy based food.


Well in fact, and thanks to the technology available to us, we can choose not to now. For the benefits that brings, it's well worth it.

kenneal - lagger wrote:

There was a program on the Beeb last night with Dr Chris Van Tuliken which is looking at food and they looked at a study of 90,000 people in the US who had adopted a vegan diet through their religious principles and found that they do indeed live a longer life than meat and dairy eaters. But it is only marginally longer than those who eat a reduced amount of meat and dairy than is common today. This, I think, agrees with what I have been saying. The program did not say anything about what supplements those people eat to maintain their health so that is a question about the sustainability of their diet.


As I've made very clear already but you are choosing to ignore, I really don't care about the health aspects, or living longer. Those are pathetically selfish reasons to be vegan. I gave you links to studies that show a negative effect of meat eating on health only because you said there was no such evidence. You seem to be trying to avoid what I'm saying by picking on one, supposedly easy, argument against avoiding meat. There are far better reasons than health.

http://vegan.org/learn/for-the-environment/

http://www.yourdailyvegan.com/2015/04/veganism-the-enviroment/

kenneal - lagger wrote:

I am quite happy to risk a marginally shorter life if it allows me to enjoy the meat, yoghurt and cheese products which naturally give me the vitamin B12 that is essential to a healthy life.


Again, that's you're choice; but it's not essential, and it's not helpful.

This thread seems to have moved away from the subject of badger culls and tb, but veganism has only come up because I suggested there was a third option you'd missed when you said

kenneal - lagger wrote:

The public must make a choice; shed kept UK cattle or kill a few badgers.


We don't need to eat meat, and we don't need to use dairy products. That people do so is the reason badgers are being killed, but those people could choose to move to a better system of nutrition. The financial interests of livestock farmers is the only reason this is being 'justified' by anyone, yet they have a choice too; they could move to a better system of agriculture.

A collapse may be coming, but we don't know when, or how. We can't rationally ignore the consequences of our choices in the meantime.

Choose not to kill badgers.
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Automaton



Joined: 22 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Quote:
And the facts are that we don't need to eat meat, it's bad for us, bad for the climate, and bad for the whole ecosystem,


This is at best a belief, not a fact, at worst possibly outright misinformation and deception. The ecosystem consists of many meat eating species, of which humans are just one. Humans are built to eat meat, it is actually good for us, irrelevant to the climate, and is just part of the ecosystem.


Eh, no woodburner. It most definitely is a fact. Meat eating has a massive effect on the climate, and not just because of the methane the animals themselves produce, but also for the environmental destruction etc. that comes with it. Surely you know this? Then there's the increased 'clean' water use (which we're running out of), and the increased pollution, and the desertification, and we could go on, without even mentioning meat 'production's' low EROI compared to veg production. Humans may be 'built' to eat meat as you say, i.e. have evolved to eat some meat as part of our diet, but so what? We don't need to anymore, and given it's negative consequences, why would we? We're in a very bad situation, and don't need to make it any worse (unless we view the coming collapse as something that is natural, and that it is our nature and purpose to cause, and so want to hurry it along).

woodburner wrote:

I would agree agriculture is bad for the ecosystem, but then so are 7billion humans. No fossil based fertilisers will mean far far fewer humans. Now that would be good for the ecosystem, but only if you consider earlier systems to be better than today's (which I do).


I agree with all of that. Ideally I'd say we should all be growing our own food, as much as possible, and as organically as possible. I think permaculture has come a long way towards making this more possible over the last few decades. If nothing else, we'd at least have more of a clue what to do after the die off (those of us that survive, anyway).

woodburner wrote:

As for killing animals being unacceptable for what ever reason, the fundamental position is that for something to live, something else has to die. Please read "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Keith.


Lol. I never said that killing animals is unacceptable for whatever reason, and of course you are right; for something to live, something else has to die. But again, so what? We no longer need to kill the enslaved animals we call livestock for us to live, so it's just a choice. My position is simply that we can reduce the suffering we cause, because it's just not necessary any more. Why would anyone want to do otherwise (apart from for their own financial benefit, which surely isn't a good enough reason)?

With regard to your earlier comment about the reliability of the research studies that I linked to in a post for kenneal, you're quite right; we do have to be careful about blindly accepting any information that may be 'doctored'. Absolutely. But surely you're not saying that all the evidence is false? That would be quite a conspiracy, yet there is no industry that would benefit from it, or pay for it. There is a growing tide of evidence that a high meat diet is bad for humans. There is also a growing tide of evidence that we have been lied to and mislead by the meat and dairy industry for years. And they're still getting away with it.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The vegetable oil and wheat industries are pretty good at lying too. And large parts of the political world have been lobbied to tell us that a carbohydrate diet is healthy.

As for the meat industry damaging the ecosystem, I would agree, but then it is because the industry is growing meat in the wrong way. Growing grains and beans to feed to animals is wasteful. Growing meat on grass is not, it allows us, indirectly to eat grass. One slight disadvantage is it will not be possible to sustain anything like the current population. But then it will be just as unsustainable to feed 7billion by feeding them grains in the long term. Where agriculture goes, deserts follow. Agriculture destroys topsoil, the very thing it uses to grow the crops.

We hear the statement "moderation in all things" often. It will have to apply to population size too, though the mainstream and naive thinking is the planet can support an ever increasing population. Well, we'll see.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
The vegetable oil and wheat industries are pretty good at lying too. And large parts of the political world have been lobbied to tell us that a carbohydrate diet is healthy.

As for the meat industry damaging the ecosystem, I would agree, but then it is because the industry is growing meat in the wrong way. Growing grains and beans to feed to animals is wasteful. Growing meat on grass is not, it allows us, indirectly to eat grass. One slight disadvantage is it will not be possible to sustain anything like the current population. But then it will be just as unsustainable to feed 7billion by feeding them grains in the long term. Where agriculture goes, deserts follow. Agriculture destroys topsoil, the very thing it uses to grow the crops.

We hear the statement "moderation in all things" often. It will have to apply to population size too, though the mainstream and naive thinking is the planet can support an ever increasing population. Well, we'll see.

Using the range lands of the American west to graze cow calf pairs is the highest and best use of that land and is sustainable if herd size is managed properly. The US does have this thing called winter over much of this land and cattle have to be fed hay and grain for the period where the grass is dormant. A beef animal spends more time on the range then it does in the feed lot and the feed lot allows the feeding out of a fall harvest of grain over the whole year minimizing waste. Those that rail against grain fed beef should realize that grain is really grass seed (even corn) and is just the most nutritious and store-able part of the grass plant.
http://www.explorebeef.org/cmdocs/explorebeef/factsheet_modernbeefproduction.pdf
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