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Widespread misuse of red diesel fuel.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:12 am    Post subject: Widespread misuse of red diesel fuel. Reply with quote

This BBC report suggests that red diesel fuel is being widely used illegally in cars on public roads.

If the BBC could film this, could not customs and excise also film it and prosecute the offenders ?

(for those unfamiliar with UK regulations, "red diesel" is of the same technical specification as "white" diesel fuel, but carries a lower rate of excise duty. It may be lawfully used for almost any purpose EXCEPT in internal combustion engine vehicles used on public roads.
Farm tractors, construction machinery, generators, oil burning heaters, boats, generators, and the like.
It is dyed red to assist in identification)
Only white diesel may be lawfully used in diesel fueled vans and cars on public roads.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-51286263/secret-filming-shows-drivers-filling-up-with-red-diesel
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Little John



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can think of two reasons why the customs and excise wont do it

1) the BBC has done this as a one off investigation. But, the customs and excise would have to do it on a large scale all of the time.

2) I would wager the majority of offenders will be the poorest among us and so, even if they are caught and successfully prosecuted, getting any money out them in the form of fines will be like trying to get blood out of a stone

Of course, if the Customs and Excise continue to turn a blind eye to this crime, it will eventually become endemic. But, until that time, any resources the Customs and Excise devote to cracking down on this crime will take resources away from some other area of their investigative infrastructure with the commensurate fall in the cracking down on crime in that other area.
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless its for commercial use I presume they ignore it. Farmers drive diesel estates and put red fuel in it. I have no idea if they are allowed to. The whole exercise should be dropped as landowners already have subsidies which could be adjusted if they are going to foodbanks.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, farmers may not lawfully use red diesel in an estate car used on public roads.
A farmer can lawfully use red diesel in a tractor or other specialist vehicle that is used primarily on private land and that includes limited use on public roads, for example to move from one field to another.

A car that is used ENTIRELY on private land may use red diesel, but such a vehicle is not permitted on public roads, even briefly.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big problem here in Ireland too.

It would save masses of paperwork and both gardaí/police and revenue/customs time to simply supply white diesel at full price to everyone. Those who can legitimately claim back duty should then apply for a refund. Simple. If I can think of that, why can't those with authority?
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Big problem here in Ireland too.

It would save masses of paperwork and both gardaí/police and revenue/customs time to simply supply white diesel at full price to everyone. Those who can legitimately claim back duty should then apply for a refund. Simple. If I can think of that, why can't those with authority?


I doubt that this would work.
What would stop a farmer claiming back the duty on fuel used in his car, in addition to that used in a tractor.
Plus of course friends and family of the farmer could all claim refunds for road fuel.
Similar arguments apply to other users.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we first moved to our farm we had a knock on the caravan door one morning and, on answering, a rather bumptious gentleman shouted at me, "Customs and Excise! Where's your red diesel tank?" As we had only been there for a couple of months and we had not bought any machinery we didn't have a red diesel tank. He then said "You've got a diesel car haven't you?" To which I replied that I always put white diesel in it but he insisted on sampling the tank despite the fact that we didn't have any red diesel. Just making a point I suppose as we have never seem anyone from Customs and Excise apart from VAT people in the nearly 40 years since.

I do have a Land Rover Discovery with red diesel in the tank but it's an MOT failure that I have used on Greenham common for rounding up cattle and it's insured, or was, as an agricultural vehicle. We haven't used in in two years as there is a problem in the electrics which drains the battery but if they checked it I suppose we would have a lot of explaining to do.
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much the same regulations here but different tax per gallon of course. Even heating oil and kerosene furnace fuel is dyed red. The main enforcement effort is at truck weigh/inspection stations where after checking tires and lights they stick a straw in your fuel tank and check for red dye. Not enough farm owned diesel cars to worry about them much but a few farmers with diesel pickups maybe cheating a bit. A good stiff fine if they catch you and points against your license keep most on the up and up.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
No, farmers may not lawfully use red diesel in an estate car used on public roads.
A farmer can lawfully use red diesel in a tractor or other specialist vehicle that is used primarily on private land and that includes limited use on public roads, for example to move from one field to another.

A car that is used ENTIRELY on private land may use red diesel, but such a vehicle is not permitted on public roads, even briefly.


Farmers don’t use red diesel in their high tech modern tractors, can’t afford the breakdowns.
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how come we have rural garages that sell red diesel? They have to drive there.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For filling tractors and other permitted vehicles.
For refrigerated trucks that have a separate engine for the cooling system, red diesel is allowed to run the fridge.
For rural households to fill cans with red diesel for use in generators and diesel heaters.
And for filling large mobile generators.
And for "Mick the engine" to fuel his steam car.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
Big problem here in Ireland too.

It would save masses of paperwork and both gardaí/police and revenue/customs time to simply supply white diesel at full price to everyone. Those who can legitimately claim back duty should then apply for a refund. Simple. If I can think of that, why can't those with authority?


I doubt that this would work.
What would stop a farmer claiming back the duty on fuel used in his car, in addition to that used in a tractor.
Plus of course friends and family of the farmer could all claim refunds for road fuel.
Similar arguments apply to other users.


It would take the problem away from the police, at any rate. And co-ordinating expected fuel use to NI numbers could eliminate some abuses for Customs. As intimated earlier, this last would be more a case of 'is it worth it?'
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vtsnowedin



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:


Farmers don’t use red diesel in their high tech modern tractors, can’t afford the breakdowns.
Where did you get piece of BS? The only difference between red and white diesel is the bit of red dye added to identify it.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Farmers don’t use red diesel in their high tech modern tractors, can’t afford the breakdowns.

That's rubbish. Come on, what do you get from spreading such fake news?
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have since heard, a very cynical and very un PC explanation for the widespread misuse of red diesel fuel being tolerated.

It seems that in some areas that most of those illegally using red diesel fuel are Asian/muslim and that prosecuting them might be considered racist.

As discussed elsewhere on these forums, there was a considerable reluctance to prosecute organised rape gangs for reasons of "social cohesion" So if rape was semi-tolerated, why worry about a bit of red diesel fuel.
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