PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

technocracy
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Government and Society
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:44 pm    Post subject: technocracy Reply with quote

<< It is my belief that money (has been in the past, and) can be sustainable (again) in the future.>>

I wouldn?t agree as money has the property of being generated out of nothing you would need a system that expands for ever but we have limits to our growth so that will never happen.

<< But I?m wondering how you would get Technocracy implemented?>>

Oo! That is the question! The honest answer to that is I don?t know. This is what the unofficial technocracy faq says:

?6.14 How do the Technocrats propose to come into power?
There is a possible double meaning here. If the questioner is asking how the organization of Technocracy Inc. and its members propose to come into power, the answer is: they don't. Technocracy Inc. is a purely educational-research organization with no assumption of power theory. Even if it did entertain such a theory and were successful in "coming into power," its members, for the most part, would be no more competent than any one else elected to public office to administer the affairs of a nation. Only the qualified, trained personnel who are already operating the physical apparatus of the Continent are competent to administer a governance of function, and such personnel cannot be selected by ballot.
On the other hand, if the questioner is asking how Technocracy seeks to have its program of social operation put into effect, we would point out the following: It is the policy of the leaders of Technocracy not to discuss tactics, because it is impossible to say definitely just exactly what would be done in a situation that is still in the future and in which so much would depend upon the attitudes and actions of others. For the present, we know that we must educate and organize, not to foment a revolution, but to be prepared to keep our industrial mechanism operating when the Price System can no longer operate. Beyond this, all we can say is that as scientifically trained men and women, we would weigh the facts and act upon them as intelligently as possible when the time comes. We can no more predict the actual manner in which the program will be instituted than an army general can predict ahead of time just how he will deploy his men and equipment to win a battle. The circumstances of the time must determine the action.
Personally I don?t feel very happy with this as an answer. I can make a guess and say I think it might be possible to bring about a technate and that would be to say that it would be formed by a combination of methods from the ground up. This could be done by linking together self-sufficient communities to form a proto-technate and by a process of education and then waiting till the current economic system collapses or there are sufficient people to make the change happen democratically.
Maybe simpol could be the start?
<< How would it would sound to average Joe on the street, will he be convinced or will it scare him off?>>

I think most people want a quick fix and a solution where they don?t have to change their lives. Technocracy is a bit complex so I guess it will have a problem of scaring people off Sad but on the other hand if things start to get bad maybe people will listen more?
<< Can you get enough Joe?s and Jane?s on your side to make a difference, given the time that you have?>>
Good question. I think there are quite a few people who come to similar conclusions as technocracy but use other names. As time is a problem speed could be gained by working together with other groups who are interested in autarky.
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GD



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1100
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for taking the trouble to put my other questions in here.

Before I read in more detail about technocracy (it's no small topic is it?!!!) I'll offer these thoughts:
As time is of the essence, "bootstrapping" / gathering as much support as possible from anyone who is interested in sustainability can help achieve the stabilising measures of simpol.
Once a breakdown in society is ameliorated or avoided altogether, more time is bought to think about the future.
People may then be much more receptive to the longer term proposals.
This may be where technocracy gets its "baptism of fire". In fact, some groups may be just getting on with it (as I think you implied back on the SP thread?).

If people take to the "dictating to the politicians" voting method then they will ultimately decide whether technocracy gets its chance.

If (SP fails and) a breakdown / crash occurs then who is to say what will emerge from the wreckage?

As for the money thing: no doubt we'll kick off another thread here (another big topic) there are a few already on peakoil.com including my review of Bernard Lietaer's "The Future of Money", which is about sustainability and money (which is why I have asserted it is possible - but not with the current debt-based "price" system.)

More questions:- How many "technocrats" do you believe are "out there"?
Is there anyone practicing technocracy as we speak?

----------------------
Some of the peakoil.com money threads:
Co-operatives, local currencies, as recession proofing
Creating money in a zero growth economy
Alternative currencies.


GD Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<How many "technocrats" do you believe are "out there"?>>

As in people who know and understand technocracy rather than those who are just interested in sustainability? I would say very few. Technocracy Inc in the US I believe is very small (but I have no idea of numbers) and NET in Europe numbers about 30 people (and is only just starting).

<<Is there anyone practicing technocracy as we speak?>>

No. Technocracy is a plan for society and there is no society that has implemented the plan.

Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<As for the money thing:>>

The idea behind using energy to replace money is because it more directly measure what your system (the econ) is doing (as energy is the basic input to the system) which is what you really need if you want to balance supply to demand. Its basic control engineering.
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GD



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1100
Location: Devon

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. It's definitely a whole lot better that a fiat currency backed by nothing.

Wasn't M. K. Hubbert a technocrat?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he was a founding member and the one who was responsible for their educational programme.

Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Haraldur



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Southampton, England

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Hubbert was also Assistan Director.

Also, the Technocracy Study Course, which I believe Hubbert had some involvement in, includes some chapters on growth curves, including the bell curve, and shows curves for pig iron production, energy production, railway growth, automobile production and coal production. This was first published in 1934 and last printed in 1947, so I find it intriguing that Hubbert might have put in the section on growth curves, with its familiar shapes!

PS: Hi isenhand!
_________________

www.technocracy.ca
www.technocracy.org
http://peakoil.technocracy.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haraldur wrote:
I believe Hubbert was also Assistan Director.

Also, the Technocracy Study Course, which I believe Hubbert had some involvement in, includes some chapters on growth curves, including the bell curve, and shows curves for pig iron production, energy production, railway growth, automobile production and coal production. This was first published in 1934 and last printed in 1947, so I find it intriguing that Hubbert might have put in the section on growth curves, with its familiar shapes!

PS: Hi isenhand!


hi Haraldur Smile

I could well imagine Hubbert having something to do with those growth curves Smile

Its interesting to note how they are applicable to a number of things including populations which gives us a good indication what is likely to happen post peak.
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
nancy



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Isenhand, (and technocrats, who I have only just learnt about, more googling, phew!!)

What did you think of the energy economics solutions proposed in the book Colin Campbell (rightly) waxed lyrical about 'Not by Money Alone. Economics as Nature Intended'?

It isn't available here in Oz, but I am flying to the UK later this week and I am picking up a few, because many leading economists/scientists/sustainability thinkers have expressed an interest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Nancy,

Not something I?m familiar with but the technocracy solution is to use energy credits. Basically the reason behind that is the idea of balancing supply with demand. You can?t control what you can?t measure so to maintain production in balance with demand you need a measure of your production. Money can?t be used for that as it has the property of being able to be generated out of nothing and therefore is not a measure of production. However, as the input to production is energy and raw materials you can use energy as a measure of production and, therefore, as a means of control, which enables you to balance production with demand. So, the plan, therefore, is to give everyone an equal share of the energy used in production.


Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
fishertrop



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 859
Location: Sheffield

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GD wrote:
I see. It's definitely a whole lot better that a fiat currency backed by nothing.


When currencies were backed by gold, at least there was some finite backing that acted as a brake, a correcting mechanism.

I think that gold-back currency was a step forward and that removing such backing was a big step backwards (progress eh?).

If we still had gold backed currencies I don't think our economies would be in such a mess.

The step forward from gold-backing tho appearrs to me to be energy-backed currency (or indeed just energy-credits).

I wonder if going forwards from that would be a "currency" (of sorts) that represented (or was backed by) both energy and resources - since both are the true cost of anything (tho sometimes you can "buy" something that is just one or the other, mostly you "buy" something that is made up of both).

When you look at the reasons why national govs ditched gold-backing you realise the scale of the problems in the current western (world?) economies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<< I think that gold-back currency was a step forward and that removing such backing was a big step backwards (progress eh?).

If we still had gold backed currencies I don't think our economies would be in such a mess. >>

My economics is a bit rusty now but to me it always looked like it was a necessity to break away from gold because of the need to grow. Linking to gold was good so long as we grew physically (more land etc) but when that stopped (no more worlds to conquer) we ?grew? by effectively borrowing from the future which necessitated the breaking away from gold. If we hadn?t we would have felt the limits to our growth much sooner. Now we have more debt in the system that we are able to pay back. In some ways PO is a case of the chickens coming home to roost.
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Haraldur



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Southampton, England

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I could well imagine Hubbert having something to do with those growth curves


Indeed. What intrigues me is that it is possible that by that time he had started working on his peak for oil production in the USA, and hence that the TSC might contain the seeds of his thought regarding this.
_________________

www.technocracy.ca
www.technocracy.org
http://peakoil.technocracy.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isenhand



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting. The growth curves reflect natural phenomena. I guess it would be a case of knowing what curve to use to predict PO. That, I believe, came from years of work with oil fields. Put the two together and you get PO. If so, then it?s a nice example of how different parts of science fits together and predicts the future Smile
_________________
The only future we have is the one we make!

Technocracy:
http://en.technocracynet.eu

http://www.lulu.com/technocracy

http://www.technocracy.tk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Haraldur



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Southampton, England

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes indeed.
_________________

www.technocracy.ca
www.technocracy.org
http://peakoil.technocracy.org/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Government and Society All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group