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Never mind the hype,what about the problems?
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
I can assure you I have made more absurd posts than that,

Yeah, I expect you have. Sorry. I was giving you the benefit of doubt. Smile

It was still bonkers.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool The fact remains that if all subsidies are removed no power company will build any wind turbines as they are not profitable at current prices. This is our canary in the mine shaft.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Cool The fact remains that if all subsidies are removed no power company will build any wind turbines as they are not profitable at current prices. This is our canary in the mine shaft.


Biff does not like blasphemous statements that could undermine the wind power dream/delusion. The correct euphemism is "investment", I think.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If all the subsidies were removed we wouldn't have a nuke on the way for Hinckley either. And if the environmental subsidy was removed from gas and coal, the one which allows them to pollute the atmosphere free of charge, we probably wouldn't have any of them. Subsidies are a way of life for all our power generation, I'm afraid.

By the way, Woodburner, Biff might have put IOO rather than IMO - middle O for our. The other person being me and the at least half dozen others who, I suspect, would agree with him.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wind energy and nuclear energy both require more resources per unit energy return than fossil fuels require at the moment (if you ignore environmental damage). The difference between wind and nuclear, is that wind needs most of the resource investment up front, building and installing the turbines, the transmission lines and energy backup systems. Nuclear needs resource investment both to build the reactors and most especially to decommission them and safely process and store the nuclear waste.

In our conventional economics the real cost of the decommissioning phase is discounted, because of the assumption of unlimited economic growth, whereas in reality it should be magnified, because we know that physical resources are becoming more scarce and expensive. This gives nuclear an unrealistic advantage in conventional economic analysis. We also know that when nuclear goes wrong, it goes very wrong, and in a declining energy future, high tech systems become increasingly unstable.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
By the way, Woodburner, Biff might have put IOO rather than IMO - middle O for our. The other person being me and the at least half dozen others who, I suspect, would agree with him.


That's because you all belong to the same group of like minded people. Why do you think land owners put turbines on their land? It is for the returns they get, not because they are going to save the planet. The RSPB is a landowner. They could reduce their impact from their admin operation by more effective means than building turbines.

There are no doubt half a dozen people who agree with me, but they may not be the PS clique.

Why do I think this is an attempt at bullying?
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people have a strange way of justifying to themselves their stance on wind turbines!!

I can't see how the TPTB in the RSPB would put up a wind turbine and also write positively about them just to "reduce their impact from their admin operation" given the flack that they will receive from their many members who hold similar views to Woodburner. I would think that they needed quite a lot of convincing to accept the science involved.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Cool The fact remains that if all subsidies are removed no power company will build any wind turbines as they are not profitable at current prices. This is our canary in the mine shaft.


You ignore externalities. (Again.)

The problem with that is that it is not true. You see a great deal of the cost of coal, oil, gas and nuclear is not paid through the price of electricity but will be paid for when our grandchildren find they need to buy a new planet.

Oh, the stock of spare planets has run out. We have to stop burning fossil fuel if our grandchildren are to survive no matter what the cost.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS_RalphW wrote:
(if you ignore environmental damage).

Why on Earth would you ignore environmental damage? If you were on some other planet you might chose to ignore it, I suppose.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Some people have a strange way of justifying to themselves their stance on wind turbines!!


You are free to justify your stance in any way you want, strange or otherwise.

Quote:
I can't see how the TPTB in the RSPB would put up a wind turbine and also write positively about them just to "reduce their impact from their admin operation" given the flack that they will receive from their many members who hold similar views to Woodburner. I would think that they needed quite a lot of convincing to accept the science involved.


They are putting up a turbine to get a better financial return than the money could achieve else where. (IMO)
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps they are putting up a wind turbine to make the point that they support them as a way of reducing the carbon emitted into the atmosphere so that environmental destruction will be attacked in just another small step.
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:
(if you ignore environmental damage).

Why on Earth would you ignore environmental damage? If you were on some other planet you might chose to ignore it, I suppose.


I was trying to explain the conventional economics, not justify it. I was trying to frame the problem of why any nominally rational person would even consider building nuclear.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS_RalphW wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:
(if you ignore environmental damage).

Why on Earth would you ignore environmental damage? If you were on some other planet you might chose to ignore it, I suppose.


I was trying to explain the conventional economics, not justify it. I was trying to frame the problem of why any nominally rational person would even consider building nuclear.


Of course you were. My comment was aimed at WB. Wink
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:
(if you ignore environmental damage).

Why on Earth would you ignore environmental damage? If you were on some other planet you might chose to ignore it, I suppose.


I was trying to explain the conventional economics, not justify it. I was trying to frame the problem of why any nominally rational person would even consider building nuclear.


Of course you were. My comment was aimed at WB. Wink


Then you should be more clear in your wording. Why is it ok to ignore the environmental damage from wind turbines, or PV for that matter? Where have I indicated support for nuclear, as you seem to imply?
I'm really sorry I bothered giving you support a while back, considering the way you have conducted yourself in this discussion. I shan't make the same mistake again..
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of Information: if I remember correctly the RSPB have been putting up renewables of various types since before the subsidies were available.

Also, they are not pro-wind in a blanket way: they do go to the trouble of looking at it on a site-by-site basis and, if it's dangerous for birds (etc) at a given site, they up and say so.
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