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Ukraine Watch...
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
The equivalent piece on Ukraine lacks the animation but is similarly variegated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine


I've always known it with the definite article and assumed that that reflected its geographical, rather than nationalistic, meaning.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert but according to that Wikipedia article:

Quote:
The name Ukraine meant "borderland". The form "the Ukraine" was once usual in English. Since the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine, the English-speaking world has largely stopped using the article"

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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putin was talking peace last night, as Russian military were taking control of a couple of airports in the Crimea.

Crimea is now once more part of Russia.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
I'm no expert but according to that Wikipedia article:

Quote:
The name Ukraine meant "borderland". The form "the Ukraine" was once usual in English. Since the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine, the English-speaking world has largely stopped using the article"
So, Biffvernon, from this we may draw the following conclusions:

Where there are ill-defined borders between naturally, culturally evolved ethnic groups and where those borders are, as a consequence of their being ill-defined, constantly in a state of flux, we get lots of violence and general levels of social and political unrest. Conversely, where there are established and settled borders between such ethnic groupings, there is far less propensity for such violent unrest.

But, you would have such natural tendencies of people to affiliate with particular ethnic/cultural groupings in particular territories simply banished on the basis of an idealistic fantasy. The sick joke here, Biff, is that these kinds of incidents that we are currently witnessing in the Ukraine, are precisely indicative of why the imposed removal of culturally naturally occurring borders and the imposition of new and culturally unnatural ones does not work. Or, at least, it doesn't work unless men with guns are prepared to kill lots of people until they forget where the old borders were.

In short, far from advancing evidence in support of your ideological pipe-dream, situations like the Ukraine, Iraq and a whole host of other conflicts, demonstrate precisely the opposite.


Last edited by Little John on Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FFS, Steve, I was responding to the point emordnilap raised about the definite article. My knowledge of Ukraine is strictly limited to what I just read on that Wikipedia article.
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PS_RalphW



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading the Wikipedia history of Ukraine, it is clear that this is another region of Eastern Europe that has been overrun and partitioned dozens of times over the centuries. Kiev was the capital of an area roughly equal to modern Ukraine for about 300 years about 1000 years ago. After that, it was split and dominated by Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Turkey, Austria etc. etc with the locals being a mixture of Russian and Greek Orthodox, with Tartars in the south, and some Jews. The country's elite was aligned to or subjugated or persecuted by different alliances dozens of times. The peasantry were as always just subjugated. In the last 200 years millions of locals 'relocated' to areas like Siberia, as waves of Russians and Germans and Poles came in to take the fertile land. After bitter civil war in 1919 they became communist and immediately suffered famine. Lenin was relatively benign towards them but Stalin was a terror. German invasion was a terror. Things improved post 1950 ish, after the Tartars had been kicked out.

Given that background, and the horrors still in living memory it is easy to see why the locals are keen on nationalism, integrity of borders, and self-determination, and why the Russian speakers are distinctly nervous.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Autonomous Republic of Crimea". Is there a clue in the name?
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back on the thread...

Tensions rising between East and West with a UN Security Council meeting going on and Ukraine warning of war between Ukraine and Russia.

I do hope cool heads prevail.
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fight on a Saturday night (you can tell who used to live in Glasgow...)

My money's on them all seeing sense in the cold light of Sunday morning Smile
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks very dangerous to me.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes lots of possibilities. As someone mention on Zerohedge - NATO has been blustering for years about 19th century style antiwar alliances. If they sit around, what are they there for?? Not that I want anyone shooting, but these clowns play the game for 60 years and are happy to wear uniforms and get the paycheck.
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odaeio



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno what all the hoopla is about really.
There are only two options in my opinion. Either Russia annexes Ukraine, and any other country their pipes run through or has the gas/oil, or Euromerica tries to annex Russia. My money's on Russia having the Ukraine and tripling the energy price for Euromerica having said nasty things about Putin....

The second option results in the few humans left wandering around having plenty of oil for the next thousand years, though it may be somewhat radio-active.

Meanwhile the Chinese just quietly get on with ensuring their currency is ready to take over from the Dollar............and preparing to annex Japan.........
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Mean Mr Mustard



Joined: 31 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
The equivalent piece on Ukraine lacks the animation but is similarly variegated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine


I've always known it with the definite article and assumed that that reflected its geographical, rather than nationalistic, meaning.


The definite article used to be applied to Argentina too, back in the day...

I'm impressed with the (thus far) subtle Russian military takeover. Marines without badges, a few Mil 24s in loose formation, a convoy of APCs interspersed with military ambulances. The very opposite of shock and awe - a creeping crisis - offering no triggers for escalation. So far.

Incidentally, that was where 'The Argentine' went wrong, forcing Royal Marines prostrate, then broadcasting it worldwide (against the Geneva convention) - but worse still, forcing a response - humiliation provokes conflict like nothing else...


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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The really sad thing about Ukraine (unless something even sadder happens, which I hope it doesn't) is that there are hundreds, possibly thousands, of abandonned farms, but people are unable to take them on and get them up-and-running because of corruption. This place has some of the best farmland in Europe, with soil "so rich you could spread it on bread".
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RenewableCandy



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and apparently the Paralympics are still going on in Sochi... Shocked
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