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General Election May 2015
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1129
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="UndercoverElephant"]
Potemkin Villager wrote:



IMO the issue which has the single most explosive potential is actually the repeal of the ban on fox hunting.


UE dis must be a very local issue for ye. Cameroon has many reality checks to come most of which he has no control over.

Scotland is one. Smile
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Potemkin Villager"]
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Potemkin Villager wrote:



IMO the issue which has the single most explosive potential is actually the repeal of the ban on fox hunting.


UE dis must be a very local issue for ye. Cameroon has many reality checks to come most of which he has no control over.

Scotland is one. Smile


It's not a local issue. It's just the most obvious issue that utterly divides the tories from the rest of the population.

I agree he has many "issues" to deal with, and there is a limit to how much control he has over them. I'm fascinated to see how he approaches the "Scottish problem". The last thing he wants is to be the Prime Minister who presides over the breakup of the union, but I'm having trouble imagining what he can do to keep the Scottish, not to mention a large proportion of the English, from rioting in response to what he offers them.
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Potemkin Villager



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1129
Location: Narnia

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="UndercoverElephant"]
Potemkin Villager wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Potemkin Villager wrote:



IMO the issue which has the single most explosive potential is actually the repeal of the ban on fox hunting.


UE dis must be a very local issue for ye. Cameroon has many reality checks to come most of which he has no control over.

Scotland is one. Smile


It's not a local issue. It's just the most obvious issue that utterly divides the tories from the rest of the population.

I agree he has many "issues" to deal with, and there is a limit to how much control he has over them. I'm fascinated to see how he approaches the "Scottish problem". The last thing he wants is to be the Prime Minister who presides over the breakup of the union, but I'm having trouble imagining what he can do to keep the Scottish, not to mention a large proportion of the English, from rioting in response to what he offers them.

OK agreed I'll drink to that EOI!
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2234
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
IMO the issue which has the single most explosive potential is actually the repeal of the ban on fox hunting.


If people were really concerned about animal welfare they'd look at their food. Millions of chickens, cows and pigs are kept in appalling conditions in many countries - but it's inconvenient for people to boycott those products so they focus on something that doesn't affect them personally.

Fox hunting is a non-issue, not only is it very small, it's actually humane compared to the commonest method of keeping the fox away from the chickens - a blast from a shotgun from the kitchen window.

A chased fox escapes or is killed by the dogs, it doesn't limp off full of shotgun pellets.

The issue is not one of animal cruelty, but of the "them-and-us" of wealthy people in uniform on expensive horses.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5285
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potemkin Villager wrote:

Because of the Libdemexit he is now beholden to the swivel eyed loony right ring anti europe backwoods men in his own party.

.

Laughing Great description. Do you have one for the American TEA party religious right faction?
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
IMO the issue which has the single most explosive potential is actually the repeal of the ban on fox hunting.


If people were really concerned about animal welfare they'd look at their food.


It isn't really about animal welfare. The foxes would need to be culled anyway, at least arguably. It's really about class, ownership of land/country, and the demonstration of that ownership. And it's also about direction - reversing the hunting ban would be exactly what "Conservative" stands for, and the exact opposite of "Progressive".
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
..... riding around the countryside on horseback hunting foxes with a pack of dogs has no place in 21st century Europe?


Unlike shooting every bird that moves, edible or not? You have a very one sided view of Europe, UE. Most of Europe is very huntin', shootin' and fishin' territory.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
.... but of the "them-and-us" of wealthy people in uniform on expensive horses.


And what about all the hunt followers who enjoy hunting as much as those taking part? There is a huge following among country people, those who live and work, or in some cases just work because they can't afford to live there, in the countryside for hunting.

Saying that hunting is an upper class thing is like saying being anti immigration is racist. It's not true and it's lazy thinking and arguing. And, by the way, I'm not particularly pro hunting but I'm only against it to the extent that I think it's an inefficient way of controlling foxes. Line a few up with guns and let the rest beat the foxes into the gun line. Much more efficient!
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunting, of the kind that was until recently fully legal, if not completely populated with the upper classes, is certainly largely run by them. However, that said, I do accept that many of the rural proletariat are as much in favour of it as anyone else.

For the record, I personally can't be doing with it at all. At least not from a sporting point of view. It's all a bit pathetic if you ask me. Again though, that being said, the other methods of maintaining a population of foxes that does not outstrip a man made environment are even less salubrious in terms of the suffering they cause to foxes. And, more importantly, the indiscriminate nature of shooting and gassing is even more damaging to the foxes in the longer run. A young, fit and bright fox will nearly always outrun and outwit a pack of dogs. The only ones that get caught, then, are the old, the sick and the stupid. As it should be.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2234
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Catweazle wrote:
.... but of the "them-and-us" of wealthy people in uniform on expensive horses.


And what about all the hunt followers who enjoy hunting as much as those taking part? There is a huge following among country people, those who live and work, or in some cases just work because they can't afford to live there, in the countryside for hunting.

Saying that hunting is an upper class thing is like saying being anti immigration is racist. It's not true and it's lazy thinking and arguing. And, by the way, I'm not particularly pro hunting but I'm only against it to the extent that I think it's an inefficient way of controlling foxes. Line a few up with guns and let the rest beat the foxes into the gun line. Much more efficient!


I think you missed the context of my post.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm against hunting because I don't find the idea of killing animals for fun compatible with my idea of a civilised society. We've had a steady trajectory of taking better care of farmed animals, and outlawing various 'sports' involving harm to animals. Bear baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting, otter hunting, hare coursing, fox hunting, animal testing on cosmetics. Hopefully the trajectory will continue to grouse shooting, horse racing and fishing. Utopia is some way off yet but I know in which direction it lies.

Class is tangential at most.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, clearly I'm in a minority here. But let's see what happens if the tories re-legalise hunting. I'm predicting a lot of people getting sufficiently upset about it to resort to violence. Maybe I'm wrong.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
I'm predicting a lot of people getting sufficiently upset about it to resort to violence. Maybe I'm wrong.


I hope you're right. The third stage.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, anything that gets ordinary people off their arse and motivated to do some damage to any kind of establishment structure is long overdue. Whilst I have significant reservations about both the underlying pragmatic logic of anti-hunting in terms of the unintended ethical consequences for foxes of having their population level maintained by other, far less discriminatory and potentially less humane means, I will take my violent insurrection where I can get it.
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Blue Peter



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 1939
Location: Milton Keynes

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I lived through the Wilson/Callaghan years and the Blair/Brown ones and after each of those sessions the country was broke. That says something to me although I am not entirely happy with the way things are going now.

All the main parties are owned by the corporations so even if Labour had got in on their left of centre agenda it would not have been implemented because their corporate lobbyists and the billionaire press barons would not have allowed them to implement it.


This letter to the FT, on Twitter, seems relevant to this:

twitter

though it mainly discusses periods before those you mention, and perhaps uses a different criterion ("losing control of the money supply"),


Peter.
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