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George with belated name dropping.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:



No, what you're doing is either accepting received wisdom, without question, or.. wittignly ploughing on regardless, simply for the sake of the dollar.

When you plough, you're doing it because the plant you're growing is a commodified annual, unless you eat a lot of oats(?), either way...it's still a uniformed monoculture, I'll repeat that, a UNIFORMED MONOCULTURE and if nature abhors anything, it's the vacuum of a monoculture, hence why they do not naturally occur, in fact, if you think about it, they are the very antithesis of the evolutionary process, so...you're already on the road in attempting to defy the universal laws and make no mistake that when you plough, you are releasing carbon and you're ripping up ripping up root structures, albeit your shallow uniformed ones, which help in hydrological retention, along with the myriad (1% currently known to science) community of life-forms and the gasses from them, good earth is 50% soil 50% space /water capacity and a web of plasmic streaming, which you've just obliterated with the plough...and compacted with the tractor, giving you a double carbon release.

You'll also find (don't try and bullshit) that weeds will follow the compaction trails to redress them back to the optimum, therefore...I don't believe you don't spray, to maintain uniformity and if you do...it goes right the way in to the hydrological system, which doesn't recognise 300 yards, equate that: 1mm of rainfall/water over 1 square meter=1 litre, that's a lot of kinetic volume to shift debris and toxins.

You're full of it.
For one thing it is not a monoculture. Despite the fact that what you can see in the pictures is just the oats it was also seeded with clovers , turnips and rape among other things which are all doing well between the oat stems.
Second I don't own a sprayer, not even a one gallon hand pump one so just cross that off your list.
Third the land is too rough to harvest commercially so there is no dollar incentive here. I'm working to improve the soil not degrade it.
Third the plowing loosens up the soil counteracting decades of hoof compaction by livestock. What compaction the tractor reapplies while harrowing and seeding is negligible.
Forth there are plenty of weeds in it as I did not spray it. Part of that diversity you talk about and they are doing quite well. No matte!! I'm going to plow them under along with the green manure crop so they can add their carbon back to the soil.
What bothers me about you is all the things you know for sure that just ain't so. Rolling Eyes


No, I'm not full of it at all, the fact that you thought you'd throw in a couple of additions to your initial scenario, doesn't negate or refute one single word I said about ploughing.
Once the soil is ripped up and exposed (not it's natural state), it is then subjected to all of the processes of degradation, even if it's for a shorter time than most, it still has the same effects.

If you're forwarding a proposal, whereby you're sectioning off a piece of degraded/compacted land and then using temporary tillage in order to aerate and feed with organic material and then following on to a more benign perennial system, then that's one thing, but.....what you seem (without knowing any flexible additions) to be suggesting is that you're not doing any damage, based on the turning in of organic material principal and that this is your preferred long term model. Yes you've fed the soil, but....you've undone these efforts by having to obliterate it in the first place, plus it's cost carbon to do it.

Move to a more perennial system and you'll also find that the weeds will fall back.

I've fired across a fair heads up to you on some of the best practitioners (some of them already working for huge multi nationals, becuase they know fine well, and govs) in the world already, you've chosen to dismiss them because you know better.


Last edited by peaceful_life on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Little John wrote:
The oil we eat.

......

Were treating soil like dirt. Its a fatal mistake, as our lives depend on it

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/25/treating-soil-like-dirt-fatal-mistake-human-life

So Little John? where do you get your food from? Permaculture beds you tend yourself?
I just dropped $250 on a cart full of groceries at the local super market so I won't BS you that I'm fossil fuel food independent today but I have in the past grown and raised enough food on my land to live on if need be. 50 chickens here a ton of potatoes there and a milk cow and calf in the barn have all had there turn and if needed can be done again. Having done it gives one a different perspective then one who reads about it.


That's the fallacy of the hypocrite, all of us were born into systems that actually contradicts what it purport to provide, that doesn't mean we shouldn't right these wrongs and continue the hamstrung blame game.

You've previously ran permaculture systems and then came away from them?


Last edited by peaceful_life on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
Looks to me like you're doing a great job in a great place, vt.


What is the point of such a flippantly glib placation?

This is it Biff, ground zero, where it all started and will end, with the land, from the excess energy storage of a few grass seeds, to the hyper velocity we see around us today and a tragedy of the commons in-between.

If we don't get this right, then everything else is utterly pointless, why tell the guy he's doing a great job when we haven't even established what's going on?


Last edited by peaceful_life on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
I don't think VT is doing anything other than most people could do in such circumstances. He is as tied to the current systemic way of doing things as anybody else. Perhaps a bit less than those of us trapped in an urban existence. But, tied nonetheless. The thing to note here is that no-one was directly criticising V initially. He chose to intervene in a couple of posts by PL and myself in order to defend and promote form of farming that, although mitigated to a limited extent in his own circumstances, is unsustainable nonetheless. Consequently, he has only received the specific criticism of his own farming practices from PL because of that intervention


I'd already alluded (in the initial par of his very thread) to the difficulty of folk having to turn a blind eye to what they'd rather be doing as opposed to what they're paid to do, I have no issue with V what so ever, I'd just like to clearly state that.

For my money, these guys should be subsidised and retrained for their transitional period to something ecosystemic and we should all be pushing hard for that on the social and political agenda.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
Looks to me like you're doing a great job in a great place, vt.


What is the point of such a flippantly glib placation?

This is it Biff, ground zero, where it all started and will end, with the land, from the excess energy storage of a few grass seeds, to the hyper velocity we see around us today and a tragedy of the commons in-between.

If we don't get this right, then everything else is utterly pointless, why tell the guy he's doing a great job when we haven't even established what's going on?


Oh! I thought he was pointing out how well he was caring for his soil and the biodiversity. I must have missed something.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Sometimes, I would love to deprive certain people of fossil fuels for a few years.


All the time, I would love to deprive all people of fossil fuels for ever.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
Looks to me like you're doing a great job in a great place, vt.


What is the point of such a flippantly glib placation?

This is it Biff, ground zero, where it all started and will end, with the land, from the excess energy storage of a few grass seeds, to the hyper velocity we see around us today and a tragedy of the commons in-between.

If we don't get this right, then everything else is utterly pointless, why tell the guy he's doing a great job when we haven't even established what's going on?


Oh! I thought he was pointing out how well he was caring for his soil and the biodiversity. I must have missed something.


Probably due to your ego focusing on being facetious, rather than actually discussing the issues in a reasonable manner.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
I'd already alluded (in the initial par of his very thread) to the difficulty of folk having to turn a blind eye to what they'd rather be doing as opposed to what they're paid to do


From that Margaret Atwood piece on another thread:

Quote:
Within the culture of slavery, which lasted at least 5,000 years, nobody wanted to be a slave, but nobody said slavery should be abolished, because what else could keep things going?


peaceful_life wrote:
For my money, these guys should be subsidised and retrained for their transitional period to something ecosystemic and we should all be pushing hard for that on the social and political agenda.


Yes, yes and yes. CAP is desperately flawed.
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peaceful_life



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
Sometimes, I would love to deprive certain people of fossil fuels for a few years.

Some would tolerate that better then others. Cool

The till or no till debate goes on of course. Some seem to think you could stop all tillage without the use of chemicals and still have enough food to go around. That is just not going to happen. Then others in mortal fear of any chemical use go to "Organic" farming only to find that tillage and mid season cultivation is required and that each pass causes erosion. Add in some insect and fungus attacks and profitability goes out the window.
Farmers do indeed have tough choices to make.


There is no debate on till or no till, other than the processes we need to go through to stop doing it, we can also convert to biofertilisers and produce enough food, there's already enough being produced to feed twice the global population. "Organic" is a misnomer and even the leading lights (such as Holden) of the initial movement now accept it was a misguided effort of non solution, organic tilling, for instance, is an oxymoron and any monocrop is more vulnerable and susceptible, due to their lack of diversity, to natural regulation, in fact....they're sitting ducks without their chemical armour, which of course, nature just comes back at as hard as it takes until things are systemically redressed, the form of which is more commonly referred to as pests or dis-ease.

The choice for he farmer isn't that difficult at all, the choice is....we work with nature, or....we fight with futility and lose anyway, that's the choice.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
I'll repeat that, a UNIFORMED MONOCULTURE and if nature abhors anything, it's the vacuum of a monoculture, hence why they do not naturally occur,


OFTEN!

Oak forests are almost monocultural as they put out chemicals to kill off other plants, as do rhododendrons.

Quote:
in fact, if you think about it, they are the very antithesis of the evolutionary process, so...


Single species oak forests are the end of an evolutionary process from bare land through birch woods to oak. I'm not sure what the rhododendron cycle is.
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peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
I'd already alluded (in the initial par of his very thread) to the difficulty of folk having to turn a blind eye to what they'd rather be doing as opposed to what they're paid to do


From that Margaret Atwood piece on another thread:

Quote:
Within the culture of slavery, which lasted at least 5,000 years, nobody wanted to be a slave, but nobody said slavery should be abolished, because what else could keep things going?


peaceful_life wrote:
For my money, these guys should be subsidised and retrained for their transitional period to something ecosystemic and we should all be pushing hard for that on the social and political agenda.


Yes, yes and yes. CAP is desperately flawed.


Oh absolutely, it's one of THE most important policies needing focusing on and yet receives very limp attention by most, that needs to change, pronto.

Thankfully though, it's beginning to be discussed between the youth, which is where it matters and they have the freedom, scope and vision to not get sucked in to sliding baseline syndromes.

Here's a very modest and basic proposal from the LWA.
http://landworkersalliance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Feeding-the-Future-Landworkers-Alliance-A4-low-res.pdf


As jobs are being discussed on the Greece thread,it should be blatantly obvious where the mainstay of them will be provided for the beneficial long-term, all the evidence, and now consequences, are laid bear for all to now see what needs done.
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peaceful_life



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
I'll repeat that, a UNIFORMED MONOCULTURE and if nature abhors anything, it's the vacuum of a monoculture, hence why they do not naturally occur,


OFTEN!

Oak forests are almost monocultural as they put out chemicals to kill off other plants, as do rhododendrons.

Quote:
in fact, if you think about it, they are the very antithesis of the evolutionary process, so...


Single species oak forests are the end of an evolutionary process from bare land through birch woods to oak. I'm not sure what the rhododendron cycle is.


A bit like half pregnant?

That's categorically and fundamentally not true, the factual situation is...NEVER!

I assume you're referring to allelophic species(?), of which there are many, Oaks (some of) being but one. For 'almost' to equate to all*, then you're suggesting that the predominant, or...most obvious, of these species within these forests have no symbiotic exchange with any other species and survive and thrive entirely independently, as per mono* and that's just not true.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monbiot is informative on CAP. Scathing too, though not nearly enough in my opinion. Subsidies should only be provided for positive (for the planet) ends and even then only up to a limit. I think he suggested 300,000 max. per farmer, which would be absolutely massive to most organic/permaculture people, if they could get it.
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peaceful_life



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Monbiot is informative on CAP. Scathing too, though not nearly enough in my opinion. Subsidies should only be provided for positive (for the planet) ends and even then only up to a limit. I think he suggested 300,000 max. per farmer, which would be absolutely massive to most organic/permaculture people, if they could get it.


New laws, phasing out and banning the use of chemicals, subsidies for transition to soil building methods and fines for those who won't.

Dissolve the larger farms down to smaller and more manageable units (with housing) via CPO, call it...'agrarian easing', if you wish, involving more hands on and highly skilled methods providing as-short-as-possible food delivery chains and policies of procurement with the public sector.


Reforestation and afforestation of the uplands, also utilising productive species, along with....

....Civil engineering land-works for water retention, hydrological balance and passive provision of fresh water, amongst other things.

Riparian planting, regeneration and stewardship of the waterways.

General employment in land stewardship.


Let's talk about LVT and land reform........
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
Looks to me like you're doing a great job in a great place, vt.


What is the point of such a flippantly glib placation?

This is it Biff, ground zero, where it all started and will end, with the land, from the excess energy storage of a few grass seeds, to the hyper velocity we see around us today and a tragedy of the commons in-between.

If we don't get this right, then everything else is utterly pointless, why tell the guy he's doing a great job when we haven't even established what's going on?



Oh! I thought he was pointing out how well he was caring for his soil and the biodiversity. I must have missed something.


Probably due to your ego focusing on being facetious, rather than actually discussing the issues in a reasonable manner.



Oo-er, that's a bit harsh! I'm sure I read that vt was explaining about his biodiversity and lack of erosion.
Soil erosion is not much of a problem in my neighbourhood. Everything is so flat nothing runs any where, just gently seeps. And till/no-till is not a binary choice. A lot of the fields round here, with their monoculture commercial farming, are not deeply ploughed very often, the stubble of the previous crop being rotavated in and then direct drilled with the next crop. There's probably more attention given to soil cultivations on the organically farmed land as they have to be particularly careful with weed control.
My own garden is, of course, completely organic but I challenge anyone to grow scorzonera without deep digging at harvest time.
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