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Tesla battery launch
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Having just read the Tesla spec, the voltage is 350 to 450 volts so my current set up would not work very well as it is 12V and with 10 panels at say 14V I could only get 145V input.

They are also saying that they do a 10kWh system for "backup" applications and a 7kWh system for "daily cycle" applications.

Perhaps Adam2 could help with an explanation? I presume an MPPT controller would be required and my current 12V DC to 240V AC inverter would not work.


I suspect that the Tesla battery can not be charged via a standard MPPT and solar array.
I suspect that a special, unique, and expensive charger control unit is required, this MIGHT accept a range of DC input voltages, but it is not clear WHAT the range is.
Is 350 volts to 450 volts the range of BATTERY voltage, or the acceptable range of DC input ?
Charging from the grid must be possible as another suggested application is backup power, therefore charging from an existing 240 volt inverter should be possible. How would the charger "know" the difference between a 240 volt grid supply and 240 volts from a large enough, good quality inverter ?

To provide AC "grid equivalent" power from this battery also probably needs a special and expensive power inverter, which may not YET be available for 50 cycles.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
I wonder how insurance companies would react to someone having a li-ion battery of that size in the house.


Well I know how I would react Arrow Arrow
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One big difference between the Tesla battery and lead acid ones is that it just looks nicer. Smile
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clv101
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd still be amazed if the optimum technology for cars where weight and volume are critical constraints (and cost less so as it's packaged with a car costing an order of magnitude more) turns out to the the optimum for static applications where both weight and volume are secondly concerns after cost.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree, I suspect that lead acid cells will remain the preferred technology for bulk, static energy storage for decades yet, and also for lower tech, lower price , basic electric vehicles.

Lithium batteries of various sorts have a part to play, especially when weight or bulk are a concern, but are IMHO inherently less safe than lead acid.

Would I tolerate a small lithium battery in a cell phone or laptop computer ? of course I would ! Though I am still cautious and only ever use OEM batteries and chargers.
Would I tolerate a larger lithium battery in a cordless power tool ? yes but only very reluctantly and NEVER leave unattended whilst charging, unless outdoors.
Would I tolerate a lithium battery of many KWH indoors ? no way !

The risk might be compared to the risks of storing petrol in living quarters, after all many people have done this, and most of them survived, but most sensible people would not store petrol indoors, except in some dire emergency when the risk is justified.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But don't they use them in airliners... oh, hang on.
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biffvernon



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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
I'd still be amazed if the optimum technology for cars where weight and volume are critical constraints (and cost less so as it's packaged with a car costing an order of magnitude more) turns out to the the optimum for static applications where both weight and volume are secondly concerns after cost.


Yes, but when you see a picture of the Tesla battery it is a slim, smooth box that looks like it can hang on the wall in the restricted space of a garage whereas lead acid batteries are big boxes that need a strong bench to sit on. If their shape could be redesigned that might be a different matter.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a lithium battery designed for home use, rather than being based on an EV battery.
http://www.windandsun.co.uk/products/Batteries/Lithium-Ion-Batteries#9513

Saft are one of the most respected makers of batteries, but I still would not fancy one indoors, and indeed there is a warning not to install them in living spaces.
Also these batteries are very sophisticated high technology devices with no question of user service, the Saft battery comes in a locked cabinet, the key to which is NOT AVAILABLE TO THE CUSTOMER but only to an authorised installer. The sophisticated battery management system consumes significant power even when the battery is not being used.

I suspect that the Tesla battery may have similar drawbacks.
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Pepperman



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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
I'd still be amazed if the optimum technology for cars where weight and volume are critical constraints (and cost less so as it's packaged with a car costing an order of magnitude more) turns out to the the optimum for static applications where both weight and volume are secondly concerns after cost.


Well the option is pretty much lead acid or some sort of lithium ion technology. Lead acid are a bit of a pain tbh and not really suitable for large scale uptake I reckon. Lithium ion are much more user friendly.

If costs can be brought down to lead acid levels or below (and they're pretty close) then it doesn't matter if there's a more dense battery chemistry out there.
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Pepperman



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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not very familiar with the technology but would a flow battery be possible at the domestic scale? They possibly make more sense at the wind farm or distribution substation level.
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Pepperman



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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
Here is a lithium battery designed for home use, rather than being based on an EV battery.
http://www.windandsun.co.uk/products/Batteries/Lithium-Ion-Batteries#9513

Saft are one of the most respected makers of batteries, but I still would not fancy one indoors, and indeed there is a warning not to install them in living spaces.
Also these batteries are very sophisticated high technology devices with no question of user service, the Saft battery comes in a locked cabinet, the key to which is NOT AVAILABLE TO THE CUSTOMER but only to an authorised installer. The sophisticated battery management system consumes significant power even when the battery is not being used.

I suspect that the Tesla battery may have similar drawbacks.


$2,500 per kWh!
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Mark



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crowdfunded start-up prepares for energy storage war with Tesla:
http://www.edie.net/news/6/Crowdfunded-UK-start-up-prepares-for-energy-storage-war-with-Tesla/?utm_source=weeklynewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=news&utm_campaign=weeklynewsletter

A British tech start-up has completed a 700,000 funding round on Crowdcube, to pay for the roll-out of what it claims is the 'UK's first simple and affordable home energy storage system'. The company, called Powervault, says it will use the new funding to develop a lithium-ion version of the product, to establish new sales channels and to implement a redesign which will cut its manufacturing costs by 20%. Powervault expects to have sold 10,000 home energy storage systems in three years and 50,000 within five years, by which time it expects them to retail for less than 1000. It can reportedly store up to 10kwh, with an installed price of 2,500 ($4,000).

Continues....
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1,000 for 10KWH sounds a bit more attractive, but remember that this is probably a hope or target or aspiration, rather then an actual price for something that you can buy today.

For 1,000 you can buy right now, off the shelf, 10 Trojan deep cycle lead acid batteries each 6 volt at 225 AH.
That would give 12 volts at 1,125 AH or about 13KWH using established and well understood technology with a proven safety record.

The full 13KWH would only be available for relatively rare deep discharges, but remember that the 10KWH quoted may also be a deep discharge.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Discontinued: https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2016/03/19/tesla-discontinues-10-kilowatt-hour-powerwall-home-battery/
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The correct battery for domestic storage is NiFe as it has a very long life, simple tech, and the only weakness of self discharge is unimportant.

Any company waffling about using lithium batteries for home systems isn't developing anything. They are buying electric car batteries and making fancy packages while BSing investors.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/nickel_based_batteries
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