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Conservative government watch
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 590
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The city+wall st will not allow Corbyn's ideas to work. He would need to route the financial scum first.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The City and Wall St are basically the rules of mathematics and people being concerned about what happens to their own money. Hence they are worried about a Marxist approach to the economy as should many other people be worried.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The city is the centre of a web of tax havens. It dates back to the old money hidden away by the Norman scum onwards - secret and blind trusts etc.. It will do whatever is required by the rich to hide international money. So is Wall St that gives us LLP and LLC and other deregulated antisocial structures. They will also actively undermine any economy which will not allow them a slice of the profits. Iran, Suez, Indonesia, 'The school of the Americas' etc?? They obviously didn't cover much history in PPE
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8631
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it is possible Corbyn could take on The City and win. He's been under-estimated many times before. The public would be strongly behind him. Ultimately there has always been a threat coming from the very rich and their lackeys: if you seriously go for our wealth, we'll simply leave the country and take it somewhere else. That this threat exists suggests that is is theoretically possible to go for their wealth while they remain here. In some cases it is a bluff - they would actually stay and hope Corbyn and his ideas turn out to be a flash in the pan. And in other cases, why not just let them go? If they are suspected of hiding wealth offshore then part of this could be reclaimed by confiscating property in the UK.

It would be messy, but I don't think it is impossible to re-arrange the structure of wealth in this country. It would be harder to re-arrange the power structures though - I can't see how that could be done without abolishing the public school system.
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Lord Beria3



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 4102
Location: Moscow Russia

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It strikes me as very unlikely that the Tories would trigger an early ge which would likely lead to a Corbyn led government.

Supporters of Corbyn don't understand that the vast majority of Tories are horrified by the idea of a neo-Marxist Labour government coming into power. Nor would many ordinary Tories forgive any Tory MP who triggered such an outcome.

However, lets assume for the moment that it does happen, and Labour improve on their performance leading to a coalition with the Lib Dems and the Greens.

The Labour manifesto in May was soft Left, not hard Left, which was one of the reasons why so many in the City and the upper middle classes voted Labour.

It's highly unlikely that Corbyn could then run on a hard Left platform, savaging the City and the higher earners through massive tax rises, particularly as the majority of his MP's and the Lib Dems wouldn't go along with such moves.

The truth is that a Corbyn led government would be not too different from a Ed Miliband government in practice. Lots of fuzzy words, maybe a token nationalization but much would be tied up in the courts, the EU and so on when it came to his more controversial policies (including nationalizing the railways).

I also wonder how his plans for tuition fees would work if working with the Lib Dems. Would such a proposal be even remotely affordable? And if the funds from any tax rises from the very rich fail to deliver the revenues, presumably Corbyn would have to seriously raise taxes for the higher earners (e.g. your middle class professionals, including in the public sector). That would likely make many among his new upper middle class electorate very upset.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: south east England

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
It strikes me as very unlikely that the Tories would trigger an early ge which would likely lead to a Corbyn led government.

Supporters of Corbyn don't understand that the vast majority of Tories are horrified by the idea of a neo-Marxist Labour government coming into power. Nor would many ordinary Tories forgive any Tory MP who triggered such an outcome.


Maybe. But it is possible enough tory MPs will conclude that the best long-term strategy is to replace May and force another election, knowing full well that they will end up in opposition, and leaving Corbyn to deal with Brexit. This could expose Corbyn's fudge on Brexit, and deliver power back to a rejuvenated Tory party.

Quote:

However, lets assume for the moment that it does happen, and Labour improve on their performance leading to a coalition with the Lib Dems and the Greens.


Greens are irrelevant. SNP are more relevant.

Quote:

The Labour manifesto in May was soft Left, not hard Left, which was one of the reasons why so many in the City and the upper middle classes voted Labour.

It's highly unlikely that Corbyn could then run on a hard Left platform, savaging the City and the higher earners through massive tax rises, particularly as the majority of his MP's and the Lib Dems wouldn't go along with such moves.


Who said anything about "massive tax rises"?

Quote:

The truth is that a Corbyn led government would be not too different from a Ed Miliband government in practice. Lots of fuzzy words, maybe a token nationalization but much would be tied up in the courts, the EU and so on when it came to his more controversial policies (including nationalizing the railways).

I also wonder how his plans for tuition fees would work if working with the Lib Dems. Would such a proposal be even remotely affordable? And if the funds from any tax rises from the very rich fail to deliver the revenues, presumably Corbyn would have to seriously raise taxes for the higher earners (e.g. your middle class professionals, including in the public sector). That would likely make many among his new upper middle class electorate very upset.


Corbyn would not be able to implement all of his programme at the same time. He'd have to start with a few things, and progressively work on the more expensive stuff. As long as he is seen to be heading in the right direction, he'll keep enough people happy to remain in power.
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RenewableCandy



Joined: 12 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corbyn is NOT 'hard left'.

Unless, that is, the country us 50something Brits went to school in was some kind of Marxist euphoria*


*disclaimer: this is not the right word but you know what I mean.
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Lord Beria3



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really? Corbyns track record is pretty to the left of the spectrum. There was a reason why the entire Labour establishment tried to stop him becoming leader!
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Really? Corbyns track record is pretty to the left of the spectrum. There was a reason why the entire Labour establishment tried to stop him becoming leader!
They didn't try to stop him because he is a marxist. They tried to stop him because his is not a neo-liberal

If he was a marxist, he would have already had a walking accident
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Really? Corbyns track record is pretty to the left of the spectrum. There was a reason why the entire Labour establishment tried to stop him becoming leader!


The reason was, as Steve said, that he's not neo-liberal. Hopefully you realise that's a huge gulf between not being neo-liberal and being 'hard left'.
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Lord Beria3



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can be both!

I would classify Corbyn as both hard left and anti neoliberal within the British political spectrum.

My own politics is Greerist centre right who understands that neoliberal policies are doomed. For that reason I do agree with elements of Corbyns economic ideas but disagree strongly on his positions on security and internationalism
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The older you are, the more centrist (therefore normal and sensible) Corbyn appears.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
The older you are, the more centrist (therefore normal and sensible) Corbyn appears.
Yes. Corbyn is not an extremist, for those of us with long enough memories. It is what he is attempting to replace that is extremist. It is an Orwellian world indeed when an attempt to replace extremism with centrist policies is portrayed as extremist.

Indeed, it is his lack of extremism that, on a wider analysis, is most concerning to me. But, he is at least pointing us once more in the right direction. And that will have to do for now.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
It is what he is attempting to replace that is extremist.


Yes, yes, yes.
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
It is what he is attempting to replace that is extremist. It is an Orwellian world indeed when an attempt to replace extremism with centrist policies is portrayed as extremist.

Agreed.
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Last edited by clv101 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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