PowerSwitch Main Page
PowerSwitch
The UK's Peak Oil Discussion Forum & Community
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

George Monbiot and re-wilding
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Living in the Future
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5953
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am    Post subject: George Monbiot and re-wilding Reply with quote

Or, perhaps, George Monbiot and hope.

https://www.ted.com/talks/george_monbiot_for_more_wonder_rewild_the_world
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope, is probably as good as it'll get, but that said, if we're even going to try and address secure food systems then 'rewilding' will actually be an underpinning of them.

As is so often misrepresented in his article here...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/16/britain-wild-nature-rewilding-ecosystems-heal-lives
...both George and most of the comments fall into the false dichotomy of duality, inasmuch as it's deemed one or the other, for example.... the pig farmers feels threatened that they'll either be moved aside for habitat,or that the predators will have their stock, but this isn't the case.

The farmer needs to be given the vision of creating an ecosystem,part of rewilding, in which the boar can thrive and harvest that instead of the conventional pig, no need for feeding and a healthier more integral animal all round.

Very loose description, but you get the picture.

It's annoying because I know George knows about such demonstrable systems, yet....he never fully presents them, as if to purposely antagonise the farming fraternity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 696
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it depressing that George is such a useful campaigner for good and then he wanders on hippy fantasy. Wasting priorities by reintroducing problem species is proof we are at peak stuff. Shouldn't he be trying to improve the welfare of animals in their current status? Reforest the UK? Land reform and throw the Norman/Saxon rsoles who own most of the good land out?

Has no one noticed that Africa, that eternal basket case, is a zoo without fences because pompous white people think it's pretty on TV? Nothing says 'I am a rich London clown' more than telling peasants to live with Wolves and Sea Eagles.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18546
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sea eagles? What's wrong with them. One flew along the Lincolnshire coast recently. Nobody died.
_________________
http://biffvernon.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tarrel



Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 2448
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As peaceful_life said, there can be a false dichotomy of views around the issue of re-wilding. I was listening to an interesting presentation by one of the rangers from the Cairngorms National Park a couple of months back. They are contemplating a re-wilding programme and have built up a shortlist of potential species. Top of the mammal list is Lynx, because it is a solitary hunter that works by ambush. It is therefore likely to fulfil one of the purposes of the programme; deer control leading to more effective upland afforestation while not being a significant threat to lowland livestock. Wolves on the other hand are more likely to be a threat to the livestock.

So, a carefully considered and planned re-wilding programme can potentially work. As with most changes involving a community, it requires information, dialogue and empathy to help move stake-holders from their entrenched positions.

Unfortunately, re-wilding has come in for a bit of bad press. Paul Lister's project at Alladale Estate ran into a lot of opposition from walking groups (due to plans for a 9 ft high electric fence around the whole estate), as well as farmers. Although his vision was a noble one, his model was financial. He planned to enclose the animals and charge visitors to go in and see them, along the lines of an African game reserve. Never really got off the ground.

When you look at the detail of the Yellowstone wolf project it has been stunningly effective, having an immediate and dramatic effect on the diversity of the ecosystem along the river.
_________________
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18546
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I'm in favour of beavers and lynx but not wolves for Britain.
_________________
http://biffvernon.blogspot.co.uk/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tarrel



Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 2448
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even beavers can be controversial. Some of the farmers up here are concerned about the flooding of their land caused by beaver dams, but fail to understand (or perhaps acknowledge) that such improved water catchment prevents flooding downstream. Human nature I suppose; people tend to prioritise their own interests.

Actually, strike that last sentence. We are a naturally co-operative species. Maybe it's the socio-economic environment that we have carved for ourselves that inhibits such co-operative behaviour.
_________________
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
I find it depressing that George is such a useful campaigner for good and then he wanders on hippy fantasy. Wasting priorities by reintroducing problem species is proof we are at peak stuff. Shouldn't he be trying to improve the welfare of animals in their current status? Reforest the UK? Land reform and throw the Norman/Saxon rsoles who own most of the good land out?

Has no one noticed that Africa, that eternal basket case, is a zoo without fences because pompous white people think it's pretty on TV? Nothing says 'I am a rich London clown' more than telling peasants to live with Wolves and Sea Eagles.


Your observations are worthy ones, but that doesn't mean we can't do things differently. True enough that we are at 'peak suff', with a lot of that stuff being directed at synthetically managing the land and now leaving us in a position of unsustainable degradation.

We don't have to rehabilitate the lands, but it's probably within our best interests to do so, animals are part of the ecosystemic web and they do what they do far better than we can attempt, there's nothing hippy about accepting that fact.

Learning to Communicate the Lessons of the Loess Plateau.
https://www.academia.edu/12899656/Learning_to_Communicate_the_Lessons_of_the_Loess_Plateau


'The bare bones of what I've learned in the Loess Plateau
The Lessons of the Loess Plateau'

1. Functional ecosystems gave rise to life and are necessary for life to continue.

2. Ecosystem degradation has local, downstream (regional) and global impacts suggesting that we must rethink the way we see our relationship with the Earth. This is an essential part of globalization.

3. Human activity without ecological understanding leads to ecosystem collapse.

4. Poverty and ecological destruction are interrelated. You must solve them together.

5. The collapse of ecosystem function is linked to the collapse of civilization.

6. It is possible to rehabilitate large-scale damaged ecosystems and restore ecosystem function that has been lost over vast areas.

7. It is necessary to differentiate and designate ecological and economic land to ensure that there will be at least some land that is able to function ecologically.

8. In order to restore ecosystem viability it is necessary to address the root causes of the degradation and so all unsustainable agricultural practices must end.

9. In order for unsustainable agricultural practices to end, policies must reflect these principles, alternative livelihoods must be identified, training and investment must be provided to help transition the poorest toward sustainable behaviors. They cannot do this alone.

10. Land tenure ensuring uninterrupted access to agricultural land for those who live near subsistence agriculture is required or they will be forced to devastate common ecological lands to survive.

11. Governments must understand these lessons and their policies must reflect these principles.

12. Ecosystem function and the ecosystem benefits that accrue have not been valued by traditional economic systems and so those systems are false.

13. The survival of people who live in or near large degraded ecosystems and the survival of people who live in wealth far from these places in the developed world, are both dependent on restoring viability to large ecosystems that have been disrupted or destroyed by human activity.

14. Learning these lessons will ensure that future generations will enjoy rushing rivers, forests, wildlife and more efficient, productive farms, as well as living in peace and prosperity.

15. We need to understand what is at stake. History provides strong, compelling evidence that ignoring these lessons will lead to ecosystem collapse and the end of our civilization.

16. When we look toward the future do we see growing deserts, more people living lives of desperation and poverty, or do we see forests, rivers, healthy and wealthy people with a sustainable future? These are two different paradigms. When we achieve the second paradigm the entire dynamic changes. This is exactly what is needed now to address climate change, poverty, and ecosystem health. The lessons of the Loess Plateau help to illustrate a sustainable future for humanity and represent EARTHS HOPE.'

These approaches can work in tandem with the animals and people alike.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

biffvernon wrote:
Yep, I'm in favour of beavers and lynx but not wolves for Britain.


Why not the Wolf?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tarrel



Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 2448
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P_l, have you listened to the Extra-Environmentalist interview with John Liu? You can catch it here:

http://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/2013/09/01/episode-65-restoring-function/

Highly recommended.
_________________
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarrel wrote:
P_l, have you listened to the Extra-Environmentalist interview with John Liu? You can catch it here:

http://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/2013/09/01/episode-65-restoring-function/

Highly recommended.


Had forgotten about that site. I imagine it'll be along the same lines as his Green Gold docu, which should be compulsory viewing, will give it a listen later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
Tarrel wrote:
P_l, have you listened to the Extra-Environmentalist interview with John Liu? You can catch it here:

http://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/2013/09/01/episode-65-restoring-function/

Highly recommended.


Had forgotten about that site. I imagine it'll be along the same lines as his Green Gold docu, which should be compulsory viewing, will give it a listen later.


Just to add....
Yep, was worth the listen as he does go that bit further in explaining the almost alien flaw in the logic of our systemic metrics, as opposed to the governing metrics of physics and the symbiotic interactions of the biosphere, he really does well to keeping it simplistic and understandable. This of course must be the foundational bedrock of all educational systems, just for a start, the realisation will, as it must, come.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tarrel



Joined: 29 Nov 2011
Posts: 2448
Location: Ross-shire, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peaceful_life wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
Tarrel wrote:
P_l, have you listened to the Extra-Environmentalist interview with John Liu? You can catch it here:

http://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/2013/09/01/episode-65-restoring-function/

Highly recommended.


Had forgotten about that site. I imagine it'll be along the same lines as his Green Gold docu, which should be compulsory viewing, will give it a listen later.


Just to add....
Yep, was worth the listen as he does go that bit further in explaining the almost alien flaw in the logic of our systemic metrics, as opposed to the governing metrics of physics and the symbiotic interactions of the biosphere, he really does well to keeping it simplistic and understandable. This of course must be the foundational bedrock of all educational systems, just for a start, the realisation will, as it must, come.


I like his rejection of the term "ecosystem services".
_________________
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
peaceful_life



Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 544

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarrel wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
peaceful_life wrote:
Tarrel wrote:
P_l, have you listened to the Extra-Environmentalist interview with John Liu? You can catch it here:

http://www.extraenvironmentalist.com/2013/09/01/episode-65-restoring-function/

Highly recommended.


Had forgotten about that site. I imagine it'll be along the same lines as his Green Gold docu, which should be compulsory viewing, will give it a listen later.


Just to add....
Yep, was worth the listen as he does go that bit further in explaining the almost alien flaw in the logic of our systemic metrics, as opposed to the governing metrics of physics and the symbiotic interactions of the biosphere, he really does well to keeping it simplistic and understandable. This of course must be the foundational bedrock of all educational systems, just for a start, the realisation will, as it must, come.


I like his rejection of the term "ecosystem services".


Absolutely, a purely anthropocentric term, again rooted in the false belief that the secondary abstract of money, holds priority over the primary source of all economy. We can barely comprehend the biosphere and are just beginning to give ourselves a collective starting point from which to restore it, trying to compartmentalise what we don't understand, into monetary return, completely misses the point and is a distraction at best.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
Posts: 14089
Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarrel wrote:
I like his rejection of the term "ecosystem services".


That's something which would appeal to me too but it's preaching to the converted. Laughing
_________________
"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    PowerSwitch Forum Index -> Living in the Future All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group