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Corbyn Trains
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Evidence for this vis a vis the railways?

For once can you please DYOR.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18551
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
The planned public ownership of the railways does not involve a repetition of of what does not work well.

What is the difference?


2015 is not 1975?


And the future is before us.

http://ultralightrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/part-one.html
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5664
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:
Evidence for this vis a vis the railways?

For once can you please DYOR.
Bullshit. You make the sweeping statement that the state is always less efficient than private businesses. I ask you to provide evidence of this for merely the specific sector under discussion in the thread and you suddenly go all coy.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am of the view that the state generally is an inefficient manager, that does not, however, mean that I believe that everything should be run by private organisations.

When the railways were privatised there was a working assumption that the state bodies used 50% more staff than they needed do. However, I cannot put my hands immediately on research on this. I was at the time on the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority which is why I was involved in the discussions.

I do have other things to do. Hence as this is an argument that can be proven both ways I would ask you to provide evidence that the state is an efficient provider and that bringing British Rail back would be a good idea.

It is possible to compare energy prices in different countries. It is important to note that different countries have different tax regimes and some countries subsidise energy. However, if you want to look at energy prices for say electricity or gas that is possible. Someone could do that.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8632
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
I am of the view that the state generally is an inefficient manager


Which is about all you have to offer. That is your view, for reasons which seem to have more to do with gut instinct and underlying political allegiance.

Most of the people on this board take a different view.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is on the basis of having seen the state manage things and also having managed things in the private sector. I was an elected official for 25 years. I have also run a private sector business in some form for 32 years.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8632
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
It is on the basis of having seen the state manage things and also having managed things in the private sector. I was an elected official for 25 years. I have also run a private sector business in some form for 32 years.


Yeah but you are talking about "things" as if they were some sort of amorphous blob.

The industries Corbyn believes would be better out of private hands are all natural monopolies. The rail system is the perfect example. Not only is it a natural monopoly, but there are fundamental reasons why it should be considered as a service run in the interests of the rest of the economy, rather than a profit-making business. It is in the nature of railways systems that they lose money (because they have to maintain infrastructure and rolling stock capable of coping with peak demand during the rush hours, which amounts to massive overcapacity the rest of the time), but if they didn't exist, losing money, then the rest of the economy would suffer terribly, so they are valuable in ways that simply don't make sense from a purist capitalistic point of view.

I also belive that as times change - as capitalism as a system becomes less and less effective at coping with changes in the reality of the world we're living in - more "industries" will fall into this category.

If we followed your argument to its natural conclusion, we'd end up with a completely privatised health system, very much like the one in the United States. An overwhelming majority of the public DO NOT WANT that, and for very good reasons. In that case the profit motive makes the system work in the interests of the owners, not the patients. You cannot seriously tell me you think the US health system is "more efficient" than the NHS. Bollocks is it. The US health system is designed to extract as much money as possible from people who have no choice but to pay up, and leaves the poor and vulnerable to go untreated even with serious conditions like hernias. You think that would be progress? If so, I suggest you bugger off to the States. You might like it there. Rolling Eyes
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
The rail system is the perfect example. Not only is it a natural monopoly,

Rail, Bus, Walk, Cycle, Car, Pogo Stick, Flight there are lots of ways of travelling and a number of modes of public transport.

undercoverelephant wrote:
but there are fundamental reasons why it should be considered as a service run in the interests of the rest of the economy, rather than a profit-making business.

The question is whether the cost to the public purse and the users is value for money and whether the quality is good enough. The fact that someone makes a profit rather than being paid a salary is immaterial.

If your main objective in life is to stop anyone making a profit then I question your value systems.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8632
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:

If your main objective in life is to stop anyone making a profit then I question your value systems.


I don't have a main objective in life, but I do place a high value on things like truth and justice.

What I dislike is people making a profit for doing nothing apart from being rich in the first place, especially if it is at the expense of the general public and wider economy. I am also suspicious about the profit motive. You say it drives competition. Maybe it does, but it also motivates organisations/companies to abuse their customers if they think they can get away with it, and clearly plenty of them do.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A company is efficient, or not, due to the quality of management. I remember the privatised utilities retaining the same managers, who awarded themselves huge pay increases because "you need to pay the market rate to retain quality managers". Laughable.

These are the same managers who "advised" the government that the utilities would be much more efficient under private ownership.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
A company is efficient, or not, due to the quality of management.

People behave differently depending upon the pressures on them. Hence you can take the same people and put them in different circumstances and they will behave differently.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 8632
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
Catweazle wrote:
A company is efficient, or not, due to the quality of management.

People behave differently depending upon the pressures on them. Hence you can take the same people and put them in different circumstances and they will behave differently.


Right. So the job of the politicians is to make sure that the people at the top of publicly-owned enterprises are doing a good job. If they aren't, then they need to be got rid of.

It's not really that hard, is it?
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:
Catweazle wrote:
A company is efficient, or not, due to the quality of management.

People behave differently depending upon the pressures on them. Hence you can take the same people and put them in different circumstances and they will behave differently.


Right. So the job of the politicians is to make sure that the people at the top of publicly-owned enterprises are doing a good job. If they aren't, then they need to be got rid of.

It's not really that hard, is it?

The problem here is that in fact that is a hard decision to make. It is far better to have the politicians set the rules and have an independent judiciary to determine whether they are followed or not.

Furthermore the issues that matter tend not to be ones which can be answered with "fire or not".

They need to be more subtle.
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biffvernon



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 18551
Location: Lincolnshire

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
I am of the view that the state generally is an inefficient manager, that does not, however, mean that I believe that everything should be run by private organisations.

The economy, foreign relations, the armed forces, the social services and other such minor things things we can leave in the hands of state management, but trains? Nooo. Much too tricky.
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Last edited by biffvernon on Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 1961

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bank of England is essentially independent.

However, the others tend not to be defined services. Within social services there it a lot of independent provision, but assessment remains within the state.
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