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What guns to buy? and related posts.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 6466
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:

I was recently asking VT about 22 WMR, I was thinking about experimenting with precision shooting at shorter distances. How does the 17HWR compare to 22LR or 22 WMR?


I can't see any need for this round except to let the factories sell something new to the guys that already have just about all the guns they need.
Short range the 22 long rifle is fine and very cheap. For a bit more the 22 WMR will reach out a bit further. Need to shoot varmints at longer range just buy or load some light bullets for you .243 Winchester and make the fur fly.
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ReserveGrowthRulz
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:

Short range the 22 long rifle is fine and very cheap. For a bit more the 22 WMR will reach out a bit further. Need to shoot varmints at longer range just buy or load some light bullets for you .243 Winchester and make the fur fly.


I'm not hunting. I'm target shooting.


Last edited by ReserveGrowthRulz on Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

17HMR is useful but a lot more expensive to feed than 22LR.

It shoots faster and flatter than WMR, and hits harder past 120 ish yards. Wind drift is less, trajectory much flatter and the little 17grn ballistic tip bullets disintegrate easily. It's common not to see an exit hole on a rabbit, but if there is one it will be a big one. If you're planning to eat the rabbit it's head shots only and even then you might find some copper jacket somewhere else.

Factory rifles can often group at 3/4" at 100yds, pretty damned good for an off-the-shelf rimfire.

It's quite loud.

The extremely rapid expansion of the bullet means a properly head shot fox will drop like water, but I wouldn't consider it for body shots or for anything larger than a fox. Idiots on youtube show themselves hunting pigs but the cartridge is well underpowered for that.

Recoil is so low as to be imperceptible, with a good scope you can literally see a white flash of fur as it hits. I like good scopes, currently I'm using two Leupold VXIII and a Bushnell 3200 which all cost more than the rifles they sit on.
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ReserveGrowthRulz
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
17HMR is useful but a lot more expensive to feed than 22LR.


But here in the States, cheaper to feed than a 22 WMR.
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Catweazle



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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Catweazle wrote:
17HMR is useful but a lot more expensive to feed than 22LR.


But here in the States, cheaper to feed than a 22 WMR.


That surprises me because the HMR is clearly more difficult to manufacture. The HMR is a WMR case necked down to .17, and the bullet is a jacketed plastic tipped expanding type. Even the powder is custom made.

I guess it's sales volume that makes the difference.

I'm not aware of any target classes that the HMR can compete in, when it was launched there were "open rimfire" classes, but the HMR was soon excluded because it won everything and upset all the .22 custom rifle shooters.

For your needs I think a quality 22LR might be best, you will definitely find a competitive class to shoot in. Save the HMR for small game or for shooting in areas where a round very unlikely to pass-through is an advantage, like taking rabbits out from a sheep field.

One last thing - HMR does not work well in semi-autos, I don't think they're even made any more, the cartridge cases aren't strong enough.

EDIT// I just did a quick google and 17HMR is available in semi-auto again. Also, when I bought mine ( 15 years ago ?) I went for a long barrelled type, thinking that sooner or later someone would develop a powder that could increase the velocity even further and it would probably need a long barrel. I just found out that CCI now load HMR up to 2650fps. Took them a while.
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ReserveGrowthRulz
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:

For your needs I think a quality 22LR might be best, you will definitely find a competitive class to shoot in. Save the HMR for small game or for shooting in areas where a round very unlikely to pass-through is an advantage, like taking rabbits out from a sheep field.


My hunting days are mostly behind me now.


Last edited by ReserveGrowthRulz on Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A voice of sanity?
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: NW England

PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
A voice of sanity?


Ken, some of our posters will never see sanity....
All they want to do is post gun porn all over the forum....
To the extent that our friend RGR thinks that arming teachers to protect their charges is an interesting topic....

We're better than that.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam2
Quote:

In case of TEOTWAWKI, firearms could be useful. I see little merit in stocking large numbers of guns, a handgun, a rifle, and perhaps a shotgun for each member of the household plus a few spares should suffice.
As for ammunition, then IMHO you can never have too much.
A brief firefight with semi automatic weapons can easily use a few hundred rounds.
And remember that if you win a shootout, you will probably end up with the guns that belonged to the other lot.
If you loose, then you no longer need ammo or weapons.
There are many factors that determine which side will win in a shootout, but being able to expend ammunition freely certainly helps.
A dozen rounds a day for hunting is several thousand a year.

Reports from those who survived recent conflicts in Eastern Europe refer to the scarcity of ammo.

I have your suggested battery of guns.
For ammunition I also have plenty plus I have the reloading tools and components for a couple of thousand rounds.
In a TEOTWAWKI situation it will come down to who is on their guard at the right time. Then as in most gunfights the first shot will probably settle it. I have a few semi automatics but prefer bolt or lever action rifles for accurate shooting rather then spray and pray strategies.
As for hunting a box of twenty should last a year unless you miss a lot or are hunting doves.
The favorite recipe for baked doves starts with "take five boxes of shells."
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kenneal - Lagger
Quote:
adam2 wrote:
................... Reports from those who survived recent conflicts in Eastern Europe refer to the scarcity of ammo.

And no, I am not turning into RGR2 !
The more believable fictional accounts of TEOTWAWKI also refer to the shortage of ammunition.



Which is why it would be a good idea for any prepper to be able use and make a crossbow and eventually a long bow. I would prefer a long bow over a cross bow because the rate of fire of a long bow is much greater but it does require much greater skill and strength to use one. English bowmen started training long before their teens to build up the strength to use a 100lb plus draw weight bow by their late teens. A number of bowmen shooting together would reduce the need for absolute accuracy in a military scenario but the strength for arrow penetration and range would still need to be achieved.

Arrows and crossbow bolts are much easier to manufacture than precision rifle ammunition in our distopian future.
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I already have a compound crossbow as well as two compound bows. One advantage of them is that you usually get to shoot each bolt or arrow several times before it is lost or damaged.
Also here there are separate hunting seasons for bows and muzzle loaders giving one more opportunities to fill the freezer while the current rules still apply.
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Large edible wild animals are quite rare in the UK, and after TSHTF they would rapidly become even rarer. With that in mind, a quality spring powered air rifle is possibly the best choice. Ammunition is very cheap, unregulated and easily stored / carried. Air rifles are quiet, easy to maintain, easy to use.

Consider typical edible quarry - rabbit or pigeon - easily killed with a well placed shot to the head or chest from an air rifle. Now imagine trying to hit one with a longbow - nightmare, not only are they much more difficult to use, they can't be held loaded as you wait for your dinner to appear, and the movement is likely to scare your quarry away. A crossbow is slightly better, more accurate and can be held loaded, but the arrow is going to pass right through the animal and probably disappear forever. How many arrows have you got ? A tin of 500 pellets fits in your pocket.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catweazle wrote:
Large edible wild animals are quite rare in the UK, ..........................


Not in my garden they aren't! We get regular visits from roe and muntjak deer in our garden to the extent that we have to net some of our crops.

I would agree that an air rifle is a good option for small animals but I would suggest that one with a fixed barrel would be the one to go for. The ones with the barrel used for loading the spring tend to lose accuracy as the barrel doesn't always register with stock in exactly the same position every time. Mind you if the rear sight or scope was on the barrel that would negate the problem but that rarely happens.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I would not advise anyone breaking any of the local rules I think a modern compound crossbow would be a good thing to have in your possession in any country. It can silently wack that deer munching on your garden without alerting the neighbors and in a pinch stop an intruder in your household without worry of it penetrating walls and endangering those beyond. A minutes prep time is of course needed to cock and load a bolt but that is not much slower then readying a gun locked in a safe.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree with you there, VT. I have fired, loosed, a bow in the past and we have about a dozen bows and hundreds of arrows on the premises belonging to the local Air Training Cadets, who practice here, so that might be my weapon of choice as I'm not sure that owning a crossbow is legal any more.

One of these days I might get around to building the long bow that is on my mental bucket list and could safely leave that lying around the house ready for use. Mind you it wouldn't be one of the 120 pound draw weight ones of yore, maybe I could now manage 50 to 60lbs. I could string that and ready it for use in maybe 30 seconds where as finding the keys to the gun cabinet, opening it and loading the magazine on my gun would probably take three or four. Using a home made hunting arrow might also intimidate more than a target arrow or a traditional armour piercing bodkin.

As you say, VT, a 50 or 60lb draw weight bow wouldn't go through any walls in my cob and concrete house although it might make a dent in my daughter's timber frame and insulation one next door.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
I would agree with you there, VT. I have fired, loosed, a bow in the past and we have about a dozen bows and hundreds of arrows on the premises belonging to the local Air Training Cadets, who practice here, so that might be my weapon of choice as I'm not sure that owning a crossbow is legal any more.

One of these days I might get around to building the long bow that is on my mental bucket list and could safely leave that lying around the house ready for use. Mind you it wouldn't be one of the 120 pound draw weight ones of yore, maybe I could now manage 50 to 60lbs. I could string that and ready it for use in maybe 30 seconds where as finding the keys to the gun cabinet, opening it and loading the magazine on my gun would probably take three or four. Using a home made hunting arrow might also intimidate more than a target arrow or a traditional armour piercing bodkin.

As you say, VT, a 50 or 60lb draw weight bow wouldn't go through any walls in my cob and concrete house although it might make a dent in my daughter's timber frame and insulation one next door.
While the English long bow is nostalgic a modern compound bow (if legal) would be better. As you draw it the cams take up about half the force so at full draw you are only holding fifty pounds on a 100 lb bow . On release the cams return that stored energy and give you an arrow speed far in excess of what a long bow can do so you have an easier hold, the ability that gives you to aim more carefully, and a flatter trajectory of the arrows flight.
I have two compounds down in my store room now unused for years as I have moved on to the crossbow. One measures 45 inches tip to tip and the other 49 inches. They are both much easier to handle in close quarters then a long bow would be. Both will drive a target tipped arrow through the side of a steel oil barrel at twenty five yards.
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