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Jihad Watch
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 11271
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
boisdevie wrote:
"In case of war or revolution, killing the last lot of leaders might well be justified, but not in peacetime. "

well, we might not have declared war but certain bits of islam have certainly declared war on us. When innocent parties are being deliberately murdered I'd say that was not peacetime.

I'll go by the Vermont State police rule.
If a subject points a gun at you or any other person you shoot him dead NOW!
I can't find this in print anywhere but years of incidents with death resulting make it clear it is their policy.


I would think that that is also British Police policy, if the perpetrator happens across an armed response vehicle that is. Most coppers would just have to duck and run and unfortunately a few over the years haven't been able to do that quickly enough. There aren't too many though but one is more than enough.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5272
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
boisdevie wrote:
"In case of war or revolution, killing the last lot of leaders might well be justified, but not in peacetime. "

well, we might not have declared war but certain bits of islam have certainly declared war on us. When innocent parties are being deliberately murdered I'd say that was not peacetime.

I'll go by the Vermont State police rule.
If a subject points a gun at you or any other person you shoot him dead NOW!
I can't find this in print anywhere but years of incidents with death resulting make it clear it is their policy.


I would think that that is also British Police policy, if the perpetrator happens across an armed response vehicle that is. Most coppers would just have to duck and run and unfortunately a few over the years haven't been able to do that quickly enough. There aren't too many though but one is more than enough.

It is hard to follow that policy if you yourself are unarmed. The VSP don't have that problem.
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adam2
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Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 persons attacked and injured by a knife wielding attacker at a rail station in Manchester, suspect arrested.
Not confirmed to be jihad, but it does look like it. The attacker is said to have shouted Islamic phrases during the attack, and the investigation is being led by anti terrorist police.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-46724322

Edited to add that this is now believed to be a terrorist attack, police statement.
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boisdevie



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Location: N Lancashire

PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame the victims weren't allowed to have guns with which to protect themselves. Which means by the time the police get there it's often so late all they can do is draw a white line around the body and then do some paperwork.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think adequate funding for sufficient numbers of policemen would allow more work to unearth the attackers before they can cause trouble. At the moment government cuts mean the police are over stretched and demoralised.

Someone defending themselves against a knife attack at a railway station, using a gun would probably guarantee deaths of other than the attacker. Also what sort of gun? Most people couldn’t handle a small arm without significant practice.
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boisdevie



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone defending themselves against a knife attack at a railway station, using a gun would probably guarantee deaths of other than the attacker. - care to provide evidence to back up that hypothesis?

Also what sort of gun? Most people couldn’t handle a small arm without significant practice. - then let only people who've had significant practice own a firearm. Bit like letting those who have proven they can drive have a driving license.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I proposed the hypothesis. It is now for you to disprove it, if you can. I presume you have sufficient information to do that.

Even the armed police at airports use a gun that would send a bullet through 5 people standing one behind the other before it stopped.

Quote:
Shame the victims weren't allowed to have guns with which to protect themselves. Which means by the time the police get there it's often so late all they can do is draw a white line around the body and then do some paperwork.


Quote:
....then let only people who’ve had sufficient practice own a firearm


That’s fine, just send a letter to all potential knife attackers asking them to check their chosen victims at railway stations have a firearms licence and a weapon so they have a fair chance of being able to shoot them.

Do you think that will work?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, it is becoming ever clearer that the state is unable or unwilling to stop these kind of armed attacks, whilst simultaneously stopping the rest of the population from arming themselves to be able to plausibly defend themselves against such attacks.

Do you think that will work?
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A possible working solution might be if the government accepted their responcibility and funded the police sufficiently, though that won’t be a quick fix. It’s much easier to get rid of experienced ones than it is to get new ones. As far as I can see, there is not another solution that won’t result in more dead people. There will be accidental discharges, people hit by stray bullets, or “sorry, I thought he looked like a terrorist”. Though that’s more likely to be from a policeman.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom line is this; there is an informal, unspoken deal between state and citizen where the citizen gives up a raft of personal freedoms - including the freedom to use any and all force necessary to defend themselves and their property - and the state reciprocates by taking on that responsibility, barring allowing very minimum force to be used as a self defense by citizens.

If the state is failing to keep up its end of that bargain, at some point the people will stop keeping up their end. That's just inevitable.

A specific example being my home town. There are, within a 20 mile radius of my town, about 12 individuals, who are well known locally, as being responsible for about 99% of any robbing or other significant shite that goes on round these parts. The police know who they are as well, but do not have the manpower to keep tabs on them. So, a group of locals have set up a group who now take care of this kind of business in in a very local and very informal way in and around our town. Since the formation of that group, antisocial behavior and petty theft are on the decrease, At least for the moment. Time will tell if this improvement continues.

A working solution coming to a town near you.

If you are lucky.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the US far more people are killed by the use of readily available guns than are killed by terrorists. There is no reason to suspect that it would be any different in the UK.

If our inner city youth had easier access to guns they would be going round shooting each other to a far greater extent than they do now knifing each other. The collateral damage possible from wielding a gun in untrained hands is far greater than from wielding a knife in any hands.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And what a dry delivery of an astonishing oxymoron on BBC Radio 4 news this morning: that Jair Bolsanaro is going to get tough on crime and is going to make it easier for people to acquire firearms.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In an ideal world, there is no injustice and no violent crime or theft.

In a less ideal world the is some violent crime and theft, but a democratically representative state policies and prosecutes the perpetrators

In the world that is fast approaching, there is inevitably going to be a growth of violent crime and theft and a state that is no longer able or willing to police or prosecute the perpetrators.

Under such circumstances, it is quite simply politically unsustainable for the state to continue to impose an expectation that the people will not seek to protect themselves. It doesn't matter what the other negative consequences are of people generally being more armed than they currently are. Most people will see those other consequences as being a price worth paying for their personal security.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They will pay heavily. The chances of any one person getting attacked is low. Te only arms they could carry would be handguns. The chance of getting a legal permit is zero. If they are caught carrying it in public, a prison sentence will be guaranteed.

Is the prize worth playing the game?
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Little John



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It wont start with guns. It will start with knives and will eventually escalate. As for any risk of getting caught, the extent to which this is a disincentive will depend on a cost benefit analysis. Right now, for most people, that cost benefit analysis is likely to lead to the vast majority not choosing to arm themselves or their communities (it is already leading to home grown community patrols in some communities, however).

That will change.

Personally, speaking I would always rather, in the public arena, that crime control was carried out by representatives. But, if the state will not do this job adequately, then local communities will come up their own solutions.

As for the privacy of one's own home, as far as I am concerned the use of deadly force to repel an intruder is entirely legitimate.
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