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Jihad Watch
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boisdevie



Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 213
Location: N Lancashire

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tolerance. For decades we in the UK seem to have been incredibly tolerant whilst other cultures are not tolerant at all. I for one don't think we should tolerate the oppression of women, FGM, sharia etc. But we do, but quietly.

We should stop being so bloody tolerant and realise that in this country we are harbouring a large religious group who have no wish to integrate with us, despise our tolerance of things like homosexuality and a significant proportion would not even report a terrorist.

I feel extremely angry over this and the mainstream media and mainstream politicians seem to feel that just one more chorus of kumbaya, just one more vigil, just a few more candles and it'll all be fine. They are betraying us.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 9810
Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LJ, you're beginning to sound like one of those ultra right protesters.

While I do have my suspicions about some of the tenets of Islam, I also have some suspicions about the way that the Christian Right in the US look at their world (it's not a world that I see!). I am, as this post will probably show, confused to an extent in what I see as the tolerance of the the UK culture. My version of tolerance is based on my version UK culture and I, probably like you, believe that anyone coming to this country should subscribe to that culture because it is what makes this country attractive to so many would be immigrants. The toleration of many versions of "our" culture is what makes the UK what it is!

I don't like the Moslem veil but I am quite happy for Moslem women, any women for that matter, to cover their hair or to wear neck to foot apparel; we men do that most of the time. In the 70s my wife made several maxi dresses, as they were then called, with a hood in which I thought she looked very fetching. She also looked equally fetching in mini skirts and a bikini!

I think it is the height of bad manners to cover your face and it is insulting to men to say that they can't control themselves at the sight of a female form. It annoys me intensely when people wear sunglasses and don't remove them when talking to me. When we listen to people we "listen" to their facial expressions as well so to cover the face, or part of it, inhibits a full understanding of what someone is actually saying. A full veil and body cover also conveys a lack of trust in others which puts me on edge straight away and leads me to discriminate against that person. Whose fault is that discrimination?

While I recognise the right of the homosexual community to their way of life I can see that some people also have the right to reject that way of life if it doesn't accord with their beliefs. I have sympathies with churches which say that marriage is the joining together of a man and a woman for the purpose of procreation. I have no problem with the state providing the structure of a civil marriage for all.

We allow for religious slaughter of animals so should we allow religious groups, Moslem and Christian, to have their own beliefs on homosexuality? The same goes for what some people see as child murder and others see as abortion. Should we force our beliefs on others, not an easy task as can be seen in Northern Ireland, or should we say that the State allows it but the individual can take it of leave it? It is ironic that in the Indian sub continent before we British arrived there was widespread tolerance of homosexuality and transsexualism but "British" values have since prevailed!

And no, we shouldn't tolerate the oppression of women, FGM and the cutting off of the hands of thieves but there are some aspects of Sharia, like the way to lawyer free divorce, that we cold certainly look at and learn from.

I'm will not apologise for such a muddled post because it illustrates how difficult it is to define our UK culture and what it means to so many different people. It also shows, I think, how difficult it is to make laws to define what is and is not acceptable in the UK.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5664
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
LJ, you're beginning to sound like one of those ultra right protesters.....


I am a socialist

I couldn't give a shit about the colour of someone's skin

I am not a Christian

Explain to me again how I remind you of those "ultra-right" protesters?
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:
LJ, you're beginning to sound like one of those ultra right protesters.....


I am a socialist

I couldn't give a shit about the colour of someone's skin

I am not a Christian

Explain to me again how I remind you of those "ultra-right" protesters?


Here's how

boisdevie wrote:
Tolerance. For decades we in the UK seem to have been incredibly tolerant whilst other cultures are not tolerant at all. I for one don't think we should tolerate the oppression of women, FGM, sharia etc. But we do, but quietly.

We should stop being so bloody tolerant and realise that in this country we are harbouring a large religious group who have no wish to integrate with us, despise our tolerance of things like homosexuality and a significant proportion would not even report a terrorist.

I feel extremely angry over this and the mainstream media and mainstream politicians seem to feel that just one more chorus of kumbaya, just one more vigil, just a few more candles and it'll all be fine. They are betraying us.

Little John wrote:
Yes

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"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5664
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And in what way does that indicate "far-right" protesting tendencies?

To break it down:
Quote:

For decades we in the UK seem to have been incredibly tolerant whilst other cultures are not tolerant at all. I for one don't think we should tolerate the oppression of women, FGM, sharia etc. But we do, but quietly....


Is there any of that you would call untrue?

Quote:
...We should stop being so bloody tolerant and realise that in this country we are harbouring a large religious group who have no wish to integrate with us, despise our tolerance of things like homosexuality and a significant proportion would not even report a terrorist....


Do you disagree that there is a large number of people from the British Muslim diaspora who have singularly failed to integrate?

Quote:

...I feel extremely angry over this and the mainstream media and mainstream politicians seem to feel that just one more chorus of kumbaya, just one more vigil, just a few more candles and it'll all be fine. They are betraying us....


Do you think another candlelit "vigil" will help Ken?
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boisdevie



Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 213
Location: N Lancashire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While I recognise the right of the homosexual community to their way of life I can see that some people also have the right to reject that way of life if it doesn't accord with their beliefs.


People can agree or disagree with homosexuality and that's fine. But a significant proportion of the Muslim community would like to go much further and make it illegal. That's a massive difference and shows just how intolerant they are. If that makes me some kind of racist or 'supremacist' or any other 'ist' you like the sound of then fine.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 590
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a copy of the koran in english - audiobook. This came from a genuine 5 a day carpet kisser [I used to work with him]. Just for the record, he was painfully friendly, cheerful, diplomatic etc.

Basically the book says, in English, that he wants me dead. The rule is recinders of faith first, non religious next, then other faiths. This is not ambiguous, and it repeats it a lot. mp3 copies could be supplied.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel that you are falling into the trap set by the Islamic militants and blaming all Moslems for the failures of the few and joining the hard right on the way. There is a very fine line to step over between defending our culture and joining the hard right in attacking another culture
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
I have a copy of the koran in english - audiobook. This came from a genuine 5 a day carpet kisser [I used to work with him]. Just for the record, he was painfully friendly, cheerful, diplomatic etc.

Basically the book says, in English, that he wants me dead. The rule is recinders of faith first, non religious next, then other faiths. This is not ambiguous, and it repeats it a lot. mp3 copies could be supplied.


Did you ask your friend about that?

By the way that was what Johnny2mad said about Islam some time ago so it is no surprise to me.
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"When the last tree is cut down, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find out that you cannot eat money". --The Cree Indians
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 590
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it never occurred to me to get into a conversation about religion with someone who is instructed to kill me. He listens to it while he drives a company van. I called at my house and copied it one day when I was out and about.
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boisdevie



Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 213
Location: N Lancashire

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
There is a very fine line to step over between defending our culture and joining the hard right in attacking another culture


I'd quite happily attack any other culture that things gay people should be in prison or killed. And any culture that treated women as second class citizens. I cannot tolerate the intolerant.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5262
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be UK less than 50 years ago, well within my personal memory
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about a culture that normalises conspicuous consumption which is literally causing a mass extinction event and dramatically altering the climate?

Why do we 'tolerate' flying? One of the cheapest and fastest ways someone can put carbon into the atmosphere. The impacts of climate change are likely worse than any previously anthropogenic atrocity... yet still is normal, acceptable, encouraged behaviour to fly to Barcelona for a weekend.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5664
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That question could be just as easily directed back. Why the willingness to tolerate the one but not the other.

Is it because one is sufficiently abstract (though not for too much longer), whilst the other is uncomfortably close to to home?

And you wonder why a mass of ordinary people, especially outside of London, despise the Liberal Left and don't give a shit about green issues?
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