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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3377

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”

― Albert Einstein


How about dispensing with the patronising and attempt at ridicule, and explain it simply?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5666
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Quote:

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”

― Albert Einstein


How about dispensing with the patronising and attempt at ridicule, and explain it simply?
You are still not being specific. One more chance. If you still persist in obfuscating, however, I will be calling you out as a bullshitter on the basis you simply don't like what is written as opposed to a fake pretense of not understanding what is written. We both know you are not stupid so stop pissing about. If you genuinely do not understand a particular aspect of what I have written you are perfectly capable of identifying it.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but it is a writer's job to write for the benefit of the reader. I can't be bothered trawling through your screed and doing your work for you. If you can't be bothered, then neither can I . There are many more readable things to read.

I assume you are on a sticky wicket as you have lapsed into implied insults. For the purposes of this exercise you can assume (with some justification) I am stupid.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that LJ's position is any more complicated than the present political position where we have formerly left wing trade unionists supporting what is really a right wing UKIP. On the other side we have Tories supporting the socialist treatment of large corporations. The ultra left have come out of the closet and supported Corbyn's takeover of the Labour Party and the ultra right have come out of the closet and taken over the Labour grass roots! this has left us with a tory government with an opposition consisting of mainly Scots Nats not supported by a few Labour MPs, even fewer Liberals, a few Welsh and Irish Nats and one Green MP. To say that the opposition is fragmented is to underestimate the position; they are at war with each other.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Impossible to identify a "side" then, let alone pick one.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Impossible to identify a "side" then, let alone pick one.
On the Left-Right metric - yes, quite so. Which was, of course, the central point of my post and the reason for the above is because the Left-Right metric is no longer the dominant one.

Instead, it is Localism-Globalism.

And, on that, because it is now the primary metric, it is possible to identify a side.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Localism versus Globalism?

What do you define as local? 20 mile radius or Britain as opposed to EU/US
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would define "local" in two ways, I suppose.

A sufficiently shared set of cultural norms and values such the people living within a given geographical area see themselves as a belonging to a coherent cultural group. Although it is still possible, in principle, to maintain a cultural coherence when split up into a geographically incoherent diaspora, such cultural coherence is always going to be difficult to maintain and so, in the end, is tied to geographical coherence. Which is one reason why, I would guess, that island nations have a strong national sense. Which leads onto the second way in which "local" may be defined.

The capacity of a central government of a given geographical area to be directly accountable to the population within that area. To the extent they are not accountable and so become politically/economically/culturally distanced from the people they are supposed to represent, is the extent to which that area is liable to break up into smaller regions and/or face civil disruption of some kind.

How the above has panned out historically has been further circumscribed by technological constraints. In other words, how much territory it was logistically feasible to defend. So, in ancient times, it was the city state. Later on, as societies developed more complex organizational structures, territories extended a bit. Significantly further extension, however, could only be maintained by buying off local leaders in other regions who would remotely manage those territories on behalf of a parent state and, of course, that practice continues to this day.

The industrial revolution massively expanded all of the above and so it became possible to acquire, hold and maintain vast areas of territory that would have never been logistically possible before. This has, in turn, required the invention of ever grander cultural fictions designed to hold otherwise disparate cultural groupings together. And, as long as the money and resources keep flowing, it has been possible to keep this fiction going. But, in case anyone hasn't noticed, the money and resources are beginning their descent into scarcity as we reach the limits to physical growth on a finite planet. Consequently, these vast empires born of the industrial age will not last because they cannot last. In organizational terms, for humans, the future is inevitably going to be a re-run of the past. In short, this was as big and as complex as it was ever going to get.

So, to boil it down, I would suggest that "local" is defined and constrained by geography and economics, both of which are the precursors to culture. Additionally, the only way to extend the concept of "local" beyond the above inherent logistical constraints, is via significantly increased organizational/technological complexity in order to acquire and maintain vast empires of otherwise disparate cultural groupings of people.


Last edited by Little John on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:13 pm; edited 5 times in total
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the definition. I broadly agree.

To answer your original question. Local.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been amazed and amused by the capacity of some people to vociferously support globalism and then Scots Nationalism in virtually the same breath: and also Scots Nationalism and then Europe in another breath. Political thought can be strange!

I am very much a Localist in this conversation and very anti Globalist. Globalisation has done much for the Kleptocracy but little for the ordinary person as the supposed trickle down effect has done no trickling whatsoever. It has been like the banking sector which has channelled funds upwards into the hands of the Kleptocracy. Banking and Globalisation are breaking the system which creates the wealth which the Kleptocracy enjoy so much but they are too stupid to see that they are breaking it.
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back Stumuz. Did you forget your password or something?
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Catweazle



Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: Little England, over the hills

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the erosion of the Left / Right identities along with economic woes make us more vulnerable to a charismatic politician / cult of personality ?

It would help to explain Farage and Trump. Unfortunate.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5666
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think that is definitely one of the consequences. Or, rather, it's not what follows the Left-Right dichotomy. It is what has always preceded it and it's simply making a comeback. Don;t misunderstand me, something like the the left-right dichotomy has always probably existed. But is has always been within practical logistical constraints. For a short while those constraint apparently ceased to exist and so we forgot about them. But they are on their way back and so everything else, including our political cultures, must readjust
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 15
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ken.

Yes password got lost, plus power switch is such a time thief as Vortex used to say. Very Happy

As I hit the big 50 this year and easing into semi retirement, I seem to busier and more time constrained than ever!

The local v global subject seems to be following the limits to growth nicely.

Happy new year.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5264
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not all globalism is bad. We need global action to curb green house gasses. We got global action on CFCs to reverse the ozone hole. Global action eradicated smallpox and is on the brink of defeating polio.

Local good global bad is far too simplistic.
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