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Shell opens its first UK hydrogen refuelling station
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Shell opens its first UK hydrogen refuelling station Reply with quote

Oil giant Shell has launched its first fully-branded hydrogen refuelling station in the UK, with plans already in place to open two more stations in 2017:
http://www.edie.net/news/8/Shell-opens-its-first-UK-hydrogen-refuelling-station

Following the success of similar openings in the US and Germany, Shell has introduced its first branded UK hydrogen refuelling station at the Cobham service station on the M25. The station has been supplied by ITM Power. Shells vice president of Future Fuels Matthew Tipper said: Hydrogen has the potential to become a clean and versatile transport fuel for the future, and the Cobham hydrogen site is one of the ways Shell is encouraging the use of alternative fuels to contribute to the energy transition. This will provide customers with hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles the ability to refuel simply and quickly, at one of the largest petrol stations in the UK. Shell opened its Cobham site in 2012 and was designed for the 150,000 vehicles that travel along the M25 daily. In 2016, the site received more than one million customer visits. Unlike the traditional vehicles that visit the site, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles produce zero CO2 tailpipe emissions.

Continues...
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pointless, deflecting clich time looms..."energy transition". Rolling Eyes
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Little John



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep

Pointless
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: NW England

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a 'Powerswitch' Forum, posters can sometimes be very dismissive of emerging technologies....

True, at the moment, most Hydrogen probably comes from Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification - I'm sure that's how Shell will be producing it....

However, Hydrogen can also be produced in other ways......, As our generating capacity moves ever more towards renewables (good), we need to manage periods of excess supply, so using it for Electrolysis to generate Hydrogen could take off..... Hydrogen can also be produced from biomass by fermenting sugar-rich feedstocks and also from Photobiological Water Splitting (green algae)......
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
For a 'Powerswitch' Forum, posters can sometimes be very dismissive of emerging technologies....

True, at the moment, most Hydrogen probably comes from Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification - I'm sure that's how Shell will be producing it....

However, Hydrogen can also be produced in other ways......, As our generating capacity moves ever more towards renewables (good), we need to manage periods of excess supply, so using it for Electrolysis to generate Hydrogen could take off..... Hydrogen can also be produced from biomass by fermenting sugar-rich feedstocks and also from Photobiological Water Splitting (green algae)......


It's as much the bullshit that comes from these companies that I take exception to. "transition fuels" still consume fossil fuels and lull people into a false sense of security.
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention "bio-fuels" either derived from fossil fuel fertiliser supplied crops, wheat(boi-ethanol), rape(bio-diesel) or by wrecking the planet and growing oil palms where once stood species rich forests.

The sugar rich feedstocks will of course be produced by using fossil fuel derived fertiliser.

Hydrogen is going to be done for the benefit of making money, not for the benefit of the rest of the system.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
For a 'Powerswitch' Forum, posters can sometimes be very dismissive of emerging technologies....

True, at the moment, most Hydrogen probably comes from Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification - I'm sure that's how Shell will be producing it....

However, Hydrogen can also be produced in other ways......, As our generating capacity moves ever more towards renewables (good), we need to manage periods of excess supply, so using it for Electrolysis to generate Hydrogen could take off..... Hydrogen can also be produced from biomass by fermenting sugar-rich feedstocks and also from Photobiological Water Splitting (green algae)......



Yes, but.
In the future there might indeed be a case for producing hydrogen from surplus renewably generated electricity.
We are however a long way from having a surplus of renewably produced electricity.
Electricity from natural gas very seldom drops below 5GW, suggesting that a lot more renewables could be accommodated by reducing gas burn, before there is a surplus.

Biofuels MIGHT have a part to play, but most biofuels are either oils or alcohol, both of which are valuable and useful fuels in themselves without the losses involved in conversion into hydrogen.
IF for example rapeseed oil or bio ethanol was available it would normally make more sense to blend it with diesel fuel or petrol and burn it in standard engines.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:

Yes, but.
In the future there might indeed be a case for producing hydrogen from surplus renewably generated electricity.
We are however a long way from having a surplus of renewably produced electricity.


Spot on. And the same case can be made against electric cars today. Until ALL stationary uses of electricity (houses, industry, commercial etc) we shouldn't pursue electric cars. Far better to pump all the money and effort currently going to electric cars into decarbonising the grid.

Decarbonising private cars offers much lower bang-per-buck than decarbonising almost anything else 'cept flying!
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Potemkin Villager



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydrogen pretty much sucks as an energy carrier due to it's characteristics compared to the superb qualities of petrol and diesel in terms of ease of storage, transport and energy density. This is just another bit of oil company pr spin ignoring the practical problems of mass uptake.
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Pepperman



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

clv101 wrote:
adam2 wrote:

Yes, but.
In the future there might indeed be a case for producing hydrogen from surplus renewably generated electricity.
We are however a long way from having a surplus of renewably produced electricity.


Spot on. And the same case can be made against electric cars today. Until ALL stationary uses of electricity (houses, industry, commercial etc) we shouldn't pursue electric cars. Far better to pump all the money and effort currently going to electric cars into decarbonising the grid.

Decarbonising private cars offers much lower bang-per-buck than decarbonising almost anything else 'cept flying!


I'm guessing you missed out an "are decarbonised" or similar after the parentheses?

If so i disagree. We need to tackle everything simultaneously. We have ~25m homes to refurb plus all of the non-domestic building stock. That's going to take most of this century. We can't afford to wait unitl they're done before tackling transport.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps they're anticipating the passing of this Law in Parliament. Sorry but the article is behind a paywall.

Quote:
Electric vehicle charging law put before parliament

Large fuel retailers could be forced to supply hydrogen and install electric charging points under a new law


The insulation of our 25 million homes to save 80% of their energy use should really take place before 2050 if the Climate Change Act is anything to go by. That is about 760,000 per year on average. We need a National Home Insulation scheme to do that: market forces won't hack it. Put a standard deviation curve on that and you would get a peak of about 6 million homes to be insulated in the peak year!
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Pepperman



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That should be the target but I doubt we're going to achieve it.
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clv101
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pepperman wrote:
clv101 wrote:
adam2 wrote:

Yes, but.
In the future there might indeed be a case for producing hydrogen from surplus renewably generated electricity.
We are however a long way from having a surplus of renewably produced electricity.


Spot on. And the same case can be made against electric cars today. Until ALL stationary uses of electricity (houses, industry, commercial etc) we shouldn't pursue electric cars. Far better to pump all the money and effort currently going to electric cars into decarbonising the grid.

Decarbonising private cars offers much lower bang-per-buck than decarbonising almost anything else 'cept flying!


I'm guessing you missed out an "are decarbonised" or similar after the parentheses?

Yes, well spotted!

Pepperman wrote:
If so i disagree. We need to tackle everything simultaneously. We have ~25m homes to refurb plus all of the non-domestic building stock. That's going to take most of this century. We can't afford to wait unitl they're done before tackling transport.

Indeed we need to to everything, now. But we can't, we always have to prioritise and in my opinion electric cars a massive, expensive, distraction from the less fun much much more practical and cost effective measures such as building insulation and low-carbon generation.
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Mark



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Charging points will proliferate under new law:
http://www.greenintelligence.org.uk/article/electric-charging-points-will-proliferate-under-new-law

Motorway services and large fuel retailers could be made to provide electric charge points and hydrogen refuelling stations under a new law that has been presented to Parliament. As part of a new Vehicle Technology and Aviation Bill, the government intends to put measures in place to ensure easier access to infrastructure for the growing electric vehicles market. If passed, the law could ensure that data about the location and availability of charging stations across different networks is openly available, and it could also force fuel stations to provide charging points and alternative fuels such as hydrogen. John Hayes, minister of state for transport, said: If we are to accelerate the use of electric vehicles we must take action now and be ready to take more action later. I recognise that to encourage more drivers to go electric, the infrastructure needs to become even more widespread than the 11,000 charging points already in place, and more straightforward. We are determined to do all we can to make electric vehicles work for everyone and these new laws will help make this a reality.

Incentivising electric
The UKs aim is to become a world leader in electric vehicles, following in the footsteps of countries like Norway, where 37 per cent of the new vehicles sold in January were electric. The government has already put several measures in place to incentivise electric vehicles to businesses, including workplace charging grants and tax benefits. This latest move aims to allay fears about the availability of charging points across the country. Carmaker Nissan has already predicted that there will be more charging points than petrol stations in the UK by 2020.

Hydrogen progress
Other alternative fuels are also gradually gaining traction. In February, Shell launched its first hydrogen refuelling station in the UK at Cobham services on the M25, one of the largest petrol stations in the UK. The company already has plans in place to open two more refuelling stations this year. In 2016 the government launched a 2 million fund to encourage early adoption of hydrogen-fuelled vehicles in public and private sector fleets.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Primarily, in what way does hydrogen consumption bring overall energy consumption levels down? Especially, since it takes more energy to harvest hydrogen into a usable form than is contained in the hydrogen itself.

Secondarily, assuming the answer to the above is that is doesn't bring the overall energy consumption down, but it does allow storage and transportation of renewable energy in a way that is not currently possible, then I need this explaining in more detail because I don't currently see how hydrogen does this any better than any other renewable energy storage/transportation method.
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