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Should the electoral roll be restricted to the educated only
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Should the electoral roll be restricted to the educated only?
Yes
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
No
81%
 81%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 16

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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 5636
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. Full democracy is only a recent development and I have no wish to see it be diminished again. But, I am not hopeful.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does education have to do with who gets to run a country? Laughing
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Regarding what kind of tests could be imposed, here are a few:

1) Basic literacy test on all citizens. Those who fail are struck of the electoral roll.


Beria's out then! Use of "of" instead of "off".

Quote:
3) Restricting voting to property owners. we've done it before (18th century Britain) we can do it again. Property owners have a stake with society (they liberally own a bit of the country) and are therefore more responsible then non-home owning adults.


Literally?

The above illustrates the dangers of basic literacy tests and shows how the teaching of the English language in this country has declined in the last fifty years. I will admit that I only got a basic pass in English Language O Level and it probably shows. Somewhere else in this thread a PhD used then instead of than and he hasn't even got the excuse of being American! Where would you set the level for literacy?

I have found in my "discussions" with the highly educated who voted to Remain that they are more emotional in their voting than intellectual. The only "argument" that they can use against me has been that I am racist as they find it hard to refute my basic arguments!

What use is a PhD if you have no common sense? What use is are a dozen PhDs if not one of them can change a plug?

More common sense and a little less education might help us all. Anyone know how you teach common sense or does it just come naturally?
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to have more common sense. I'm not stupid, which is why I know I'm short of common sense. I wish common sense was taught.

It's what John Cleese said, isn't it? Stupid people don't know they're stupid, because they're stupid.

Also, look up the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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Snail



Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 693

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never heard if the dunning-kruger effect before, but from the first webpage I went to:

Quote:
The built-in features of our brains, and the life experiences we accumulate, do in fact fill our heads with immense knowledge; what they do not confer is insight into the dimensions of our ignorance. As such, wisdom may not involve facts and formulas so much as the ability to recognize when a limit has been reached


And
Quote:
In many areas of life, incompetent people do not recognize  scratch that, cannot recognize  just how incompetent they are, a phenomenon that has come to be known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. Logic itself almost demands this lack of self-insight: For poor performers to recognize their ineptitude would require them to possess the very expertise they lack


Higher educated people are as foolish as everybody else. But, because of over-confidence in their 'achievements', will be less likely to be even aware of any short-comings.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For poor performers to recognize their ineptitude would require them to possess the very expertise they lack.


I like that.

The Dunning-Kruger effect, to summarise, states that people who are less competent tend to overestimate their competence (look at any comments section on any website for examples!) and competent people tend to underestimate their own competence, whilst also over-estimating others' competence, including and especially the incompetent. Laughing
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For poor performers to recognize their ineptitude would require them to possess the very expertise they lack.


That is not true in creative activities. In my architectural design work I can recognise that I do not have the same creative abilities as most architects do but I can recognise that my technical knowledge of building, insulation and building physics is superior to many architects.

I would also say that it is not true in sporting activities where inferiority can be glaring as you watch someone dancing around you on a rugby or football pitch or lapping you AGAIN!!!

Being able to assess your performance against others requires a modicum of humility which, I will agree, some people do not possess.
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emordnilap



Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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Location: Houǝsʇlʎ' ᴉʇ,s ɹǝɐllʎ uoʇ ʍoɹʇɥ ʇɥǝ ǝɟɟoɹʇ' pou,ʇ ǝʌǝu qoʇɥǝɹ˙

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took the implications of the statement to be more subtle than that, k-l, which is why I made the point about comments' sections. It's pretty obvious in sport when someone is of superior skill.

You're probably under-estimating your creative skills Laughing whilst still recognising the superior skills of others. Wink

When I last interviewed candidates for a job as graphic designer, all but one of the applicants were, frankly, shite. Some already worked in graphic design, which I found worrying. Having a computer and a copy of InDesign does not a designer make. And some of them actually wanted to use Microshit Word!

My skills as a graphic designer are only competent and workmanlike but I recognised the one interviewee who clearly had superior creative skills - over me and the rest - straight away. The others were chancers, some of whom are still, years later, putting their cringeworthy efforts into the public domain.

It's people such as these to whom the criticism applies.
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"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 4249
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
....
......
More common sense and a little less education might help us all. Anyone know how you teach common sense or does it just come naturally?
I think some is learned by experience. Trying to jump the brook and getting one shoe wet etc. Completing day long tasks that have to be done so failing to pace oneself makes the end of the task and day that much harder.
There is not much learned sitting in front of an X box.
All this during the formative years. Thirty somethings without a lick of common sense will arrive at the nursing home just as inept as they are at thirty.
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Lurkalot



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too would be unhappy with any sort of educational threshold. I know a fair few people who are generally intelligent but who have very little in the way of academic qualifications and the suggestion would leave them out of the democratic system. There is also I feel the assumption that better educated and good , honest and decent go hand in hand. Was Hitler or Amin or a host of other dictators uneducated ? Is Trump any more educated than some of the bad dudes he wants to stop entering the country?

Lord Beria3 wrote:
Restricting voting to property owners. we've done it before (18th century Britain) we can do it again. Property owners have a stake with society (they liberally own a bit of the country) and are therefore more responsible then non-home owning adults.
.


However , I am somewhat drawn to the idea that criminals should be stripped of their right to vote. If property owners have a stake in society then those who abuse and prey upon that society have nothing but contempt for it and they perhaps shouldn't have a right to have a say in it.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crime is more common among the poor for rather obvious reasons.
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Lurkalot



Joined: 08 Mar 2014
Posts: 166

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it's more likely for the poor to have a lower educational standard . Didn't say the plan was flawless. Thinking about it the other flaw might be that we would see more sentences handed out to remove people from the electoral rolls , a sort of jurisdictional jerrymandering.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Crime is more common among the poor for rather obvious reasons.

Sadly that is true, but some people are poor just because they are stupid and the stupidest ones are more likely to break enough laws to get caught ,convicted and incarcerated. Do you want these dumbest of the dumb who have demonstrated a lack of judgement picking our leaders?
In the US most states don't allow voting while in jail and many bar convicted felons the vote for life. Most did not consider the loss of voting privileges before they robbed the liquor store.
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha! Those with money and property don't need to vote, except to keep it.

Also (random but somehow related thought), politicians should receive, from all sources, no more than the minimum wage.
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"Buddhists say we come back as animals and they refer to them as lesser beings. Well, animals aren’t lesser beings, they’re just like us. So I say fụck the Buddhists" - Bjork
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
Ha! Those with money and property don't need to vote, except to keep it.


What an odd thing to say. If it can be taken away what value would money or property have? You vote for taxes that will be spent to preserve the value of your money and property or even increase it. Defense spending protects your property values and infrastructure spending can increase it.
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