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Brexit process
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clv101
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Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
Parliament supreme until you make your first trade treaty (hell, even joining the WTO will reduce sovereignty). I think the main issue isn't tariffs, it's keeping to the standards expected for goods, at least for our exporters to the EU (who appear to be stuffed at this point).

Standards wise, it looks like we'll be more towards the 'standard takers' than the 'standard makers' end of the spectrum. For exports into the EU we'll clearly have to comply with all existing (and future) standards but firstly will have less influence on them and secondly and more problematic, UK standards might diverge. If UK standards don't diverge (better for exports) we'll just end up adopting all future standards with less influence on them. That's the exact opposite of 'taking back control'!
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: NW England

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Why, precisely, do they "appear to be stuffed"?


https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/brexit-explained/brexit-explained-10-things-know-about-world-trade-organization-wto
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooohhhh...that sound soooo hard doesn't it...

How on earth do all of those other countries who trade with countries in the EU manage?
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adam2
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we wish to export for example electrical appliances to the EU after brexit, then of course we will have to comply with EU rules, and in practice it wont be worth making two versions, so the appliances for the home market will also be made to EU rules.

However for goods that are never/seldom exported, then we could reasonably follow our own standards.

As an example, ONE of the reasons given for the ballooning costs of railway electrification is said to be new EU rules requiring greater clearances between the 25KV overhead and structures.
For fixed railway structures we could revert to the previously permitted clearances.
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


We would mostly get retired people returning from the Costa Del Sol etc. with their associated medical and care costs.


Dead relatively soon. No additional offspring. Smile
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Mark wrote:


We would mostly get retired people returning from the Costa Del Sol etc. with their associated medical and care costs.


Dead relatively soon. No additional offspring. Smile


The NHS is already billed by foreign medical systems for expat costs eg in Spain. If expats returned, they are spending their money in the UK. As UE said they aren't adding more kids etc.

"Official figures reveal 145,000 British expat pensioners have signed up for European Health Insurance Cards (EHIC) which allow them to have free or discounted treatment across the European Economic Area (EEA).

Meanwhile, 4,000 EEA pensioners registered for the service under the NHS in Britain.

The EHIC system offers healthcare under a reciprocal agreement between governments that allows a foreign health service to bill the NHS for the cost of treating British expats and vice versa."

http://www.iexpats.com/british-expats-europe-cost-nhs-674m-year/
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fuzzy



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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.thelocal.es/20140211/spains-uk-expats-to-lose-free-nhs-health-care
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careful_eugene



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 443
Location: Nottingham UK

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
If we wish to export for example electrical appliances to the EU after brexit, then of course we will have to comply with EU rules, and in practice it wont be worth making two versions, so the appliances for the home market will also be made to EU rules.

However for goods that are never/seldom exported, then we could reasonably follow our own standards.

As an example, ONE of the reasons given for the ballooning costs of railway electrification is said to be new EU rules requiring greater clearances between the 25KV overhead and structures.
For fixed railway structures we could revert to the previously permitted clearances.

I can't see this changing, all new OLE steelwork being used on electrical upgrades is being made to a German design. Even the bolts specified are the type used in continental Europe not what we would usually use here in the UK. Getting something changed at Network Rail is nigh on impossible.
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adam2
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not so much the design of the steelwork for railway electrification, as the clearances required between live parts and unrelated structures.

No harm in use of German equipment if this be cheaper or better in some way. The problem is when clearances under a bridge that were compliant say 10 years are now ruled non compliant.
The increased clearances are required are ONE of the reasons why the west of England electrification project is years behind schedule, and costing many times the original cost.
Has the insulating properties of air really declined so much ?
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careful_eugene



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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:
It is not so much the design of the steelwork for railway electrification, as the clearances required between live parts and unrelated structures.

No harm in use of German equipment if this be cheaper or better in some way. The problem is when clearances under a bridge that were compliant say 10 years are now ruled non compliant.
The increased clearances are required are ONE of the reasons why the west of England electrification project is years behind schedule, and costing many times the original cost.
Has the insulating properties of air really declined so much ?

It's worth noting that the increased clearances also apply on DC 3rd rail lines (I work for a company that makes steel bridges so must declare an interest).
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SO....does anybody actually want a soft brexit? Seems to me to be the worst of all outcomes. Unless brexit includes the ending of freedom of movement, we might as well remain in the EU.

Anyone disagree with that?
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johnhemming2



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EEA option (Norway) was given as an example of leaving the EU in the referendum by the leave campaign.

I argued for a remain vote on the basis that the EEA option gave us less influence over the rules we had to follow.

Remember, however: Brexit is Brexit.

If you consider the border priorities of the DUP - no need for passports between NI and GB, no formalised border controls between NI and ROI.

This is very difficult to do without effectively maintaining freedom of movement.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that people from the Remain side of the EU referendum are now crawling all over social media crowing about how this all means that Brexit can be reversed. And, of course, the Remainers in the political class are jumping on this as well.This is despite the fact of over 80% of the electorate choosing a party that has publicly accepted that Brexit is going to happen.

Remainers who are also self-proclaimed Labour voters should be very careful. The only reason so many ex labour voters who voted for the likes of UKIP or, even, the Conservatives at the 2015 election and who also voted to leave in the EU referendum came back to Labour this time around is because of Labour's unequivocal acceptance of Brexit.

However, it wont take much to push them back away.

In short, Labour's stunning rise from the ashes at this election is more or less entirely due to non-Brexit issues as was Theresa May's dismal performance. In the coming period of turbulence, then, while the Tory party eats itself, those other issues need to be kept to the fore and Brexit should be left alone. Nnot in here, of course. Rather, it should be left alone, for the moment, in terms of the wider political struggle to get the Tories out.

Outside of the truth telling walls of this forum, however, metropolitan liberals who claim to be of the Left but who were also Remainers in the EU referendum need to ask themselves which is most important to them - satisfying a need to get their way on a specific issue or getting a proper left-leaning government into power who are going to work for all of the people of this country?

They going to have to choose. And, the choice they make will tell the rest of us all we need to know in terms of the authenticity of the claim of being of the Left made by them.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:


Remember, however: Brexit is Brexit.



That is meaningless.


Quote:

If you consider the border priorities of the DUP - no need for passports between NI and GB, no formalised border controls between NI and ROI.

This is very difficult to do without effectively maintaining freedom of movement.


I agree. The DUP will not agree to a "hard brexit".
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UndercoverElephant



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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
I see that people from the Remain side of the EU referendum are now crawling all over social media crowing about how this all means that Brexit can be reversed. And, of course, the Remainers in the political class are jumping on this as well.This is despite the fact of over 80% of the electorate choosing a party that has publicly accepted that Brexit is going to happen.

Remainers who are also self-proclaimed Labour voters should be very careful. The only reason so many ex labour voters who voted for the likes of UKIP or, even, the Conservatives at the 2015 election and who also voted to leave in the EU referendum came back to Labour this time around is because of Labour's unequivocal acceptance of Brexit.

However, it wont take much to push them back away.

In short, Labour's stunning rise from the ashes at this election is more or less entirely due to non-Brexit issues as was Theresa May's dismal performance. In the coming period of turbulence, then, while the Tory party eats itself, those other issues need to be kept to the fore and Brexit should be left alone. Nnot in here, of course. Rather, it should be left alone, for the moment, in terms of the wider political struggle to get the Tories out.


But that is impossible. Negotiations are due to start next week, and there is no way the next election can be fought without all parties making their position on Brexit clear.

Quote:

Outside of the truth telling walls of this forum, however, metropolitan liberals who claim to be of the Left but who were also Remainers in the EU referendum need to ask themselves which is most important to them - satisfying a need to get their way on a specific issue or getting a proper left-leaning government into power who are going to work for all of the people of this country?

They going to have to choose. And, the choice they make will tell the rest of us all we need to know in terms of the authenticity of the claim of being of the Left made by them.


Well, I am not sure where I stand with respect to this. For me, the bottom line is the ending of freedom of movement. Any "brexit" that doesn't include this might as well not be brexit at all. If we can't get rid of freedom of movement, I do not want the UK to leave the EU. Same goes for control of fisheries - if we can't get that back, then there's no point in leaving.
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