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Brexit process
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1114
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumuz1 wrote:
1/ Do you think that a professor of economics of a top Russelgroup University, multiple published author on the EU, is someone who's opinion is valid and the postulates given in the academic work, worthy of consideration?

2/ Do you accept that world prices are lower than EU internal market prices?


I've answered both your questions, you just didn't like what I said:
1. Without a link, who knows whether his/her opinion is valid or worthy of consideration. I'm not going on a googling trip. It is therefore unanswerable.
2. Tariffs vary greatly depending on the product/sector/country concerned, so your point is yet another sweeping generalisation. It is therefore unanswerable.

If we are talking Banks, you're defo talking Aaron Banks.... Very Happy
Regarding referencing, I've made nearly 1,000 posts on here and quoted a wide variety/range of organisations over the years, most fairly mainstream, including some Trade Associations - you either don't read the link before commenting, or dismiss anything you don't agree with as 'fake news' - remind you of anyone ?
I didn't say that the £350 million claim was any sort of reference, I just mentioned it as another example of an unsubstantiated claim.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 442
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:
1/ Do you think that a professor of economics of a top Russelgroup University, multiple published author on the EU, is someone who's opinion is valid and the postulates given in the academic work, worthy of consideration?

2/ Do you accept that world prices are lower than EU internal market prices?


I've answered both your questions, you just didn't like what I said:
1. Without a link, who knows whether his/her opinion is valid or worthy of consideration. I'm not going on a googling trip. It is therefore unanswerable.
2. Tariffs vary greatly depending on the product/sector/country concerned, so your point is yet another sweeping generalisation. It is therefore unanswerable.



Obliquely, you have answered the two fundamental questions to the fullest possible extent.

Thank you, it was all I needed to know.
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 683
Location: Norfolk

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
Joe Swinson on Good Morning Britain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD7oWrpKwYA&feature=youtu.be

It's time to start describing this for for what it is. It's treason.


Treason? rofl

Lay off the hyperbole please it's just getting very very old now.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7094
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
Little John wrote:
Joe Swinson on Good Morning Britain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD7oWrpKwYA&feature=youtu.be

It's time to start describing this for for what it is. It's treason.


Treason? rofl

Lay off the hyperbole please it's just getting very very old now.
I have more respect, as it happens, for the likes of Swinson that I do for liars like you. At least she and her ilk are now finally honest and up front about wishing to overtly overturn democracy.
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cubes



Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 683
Location: Norfolk

PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What? Winning an election with a manifesto promise to overturn brexit and she won't have a democratic manate for it? Don't make it laugh.

It'll be a miracle if the libdems win though Sad the majority of people will not put brexit towards the top of their list of reasons for voting. As usual number 1 will be "I've always voted this way".
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9996
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From twitter:

Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn: Only a Labour government will give people the choice of a credible leave offer and remain. We'll put it to the people, giving them a final say, in a public vote. And as a Labour Prime Minister, I'll implement their decision. Labour will put power into the hands of the people.


The tories/BXP are now both no deal, and the libdems are revoke without a second referendum. Neither can back down from that position before the election, so those are the manifesto commitments.

Looks to me like Corbyn has played a blinder. Labour really is offering the only way forward that can resolve brexit (by which I mean bring this process to an end).
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9996
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cubes wrote:
What? Winning an election with a manifesto promise to overturn brexit and she won't have a democratic manate for it? Don't make it laugh.

It'll be a miracle if the libdems win though Sad the majority of people will not put brexit towards the top of their list of reasons for voting. As usual number 1 will be "I've always voted this way".


Swinson has already blown any chance she had of capitalising in a big way from this situation. Two weeks ago she was calling for a referendum. Now she's calling Corbyn a traitor for calling for a referendum. This is not playing well to recent remainer converts from Labour. Labour's offer looks more honest, more democratic and more realistic.
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1114
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Swinson has already blown any chance she had of capitalising in a big way from this situation. Two weeks ago she was calling for a referendum. Now she's calling Corbyn a traitor for calling for a referendum. This is not playing well to recent remainer converts from Labour. Labour's offer looks more honest, more democratic and more realistic.


Or more indecisive ?

I'm preparing my 'tin hat' for this......

My personal thoughts on a possible way out:
The UK (Parliament) could develop a list of key issues we'd like the EU to address (lack of democracy/scrutiny, not signing-off the accounts, ECJ, immigration etc. etc.) and propose potential changes/solutions.
We could agree a period of negotiation with the EU (X years) and if a reform plan can be agreed, a period of implementation (Y years). At the end of this, we could have a new referendum to either revoke A50 or leave hard-Brexit.
This should keep remainers happy - prospect of remaining in the EU.
This should also keep some/most leavers happy - prospect of most 'gripes' being addressed.
'Hard-line' leavers would probably not be happy.

Obviously this would also depend on how much the EU wants to keep us, and whether the UK could get support for a reformed EU from some of the EU27.

I've not heard any Politician/Party say anything like this ?
Maybe there are some good reasons for this, which I'm sure I'll soon be made aware of Very Happy
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7094
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=183BGYeq5uc&fbclid=IwAR2qh5OTe5LGFEQIpS3gx89NbDj5XMTSN_pI9Rx7T2j1G_wJs-zSFbW24SA&app=desktop

Dempsy is the real thing. A real socialist.

This is what wankers like Owen Jones are objecting to. They are objecting to Dempsy BECAUSE he is a socialist. The truth is, Jones and his ilk are fifth columnist neo-liberal establishment shills like a significant portion of the PLP.

This is the reason why the wet, liberal left have gone insane if they really think the working class are going to stand for this shit.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9996
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Swinson has already blown any chance she had of capitalising in a big way from this situation. Two weeks ago she was calling for a referendum. Now she's calling Corbyn a traitor for calling for a referendum. This is not playing well to recent remainer converts from Labour. Labour's offer looks more honest, more democratic and more realistic.


Or more indecisive ?


What is indecisive about it? They have decided to throw the final decision back to the people, which is exactly what most remainers have been asking for for months. Nobody accused the liberal democrats of "indecisiveness" when that was their position, so why is Corbyn now being called indecisive for saying the same thing? Seems to me that some people will attack Corbyn regardless of what he says.


Quote:

My personal thoughts on a possible way out:
The UK (Parliament) could develop a list of key issues we'd like the EU to address (lack of democracy/scrutiny, not signing-off the accounts, ECJ, immigration etc. etc.) and propose potential changes/solutions.
We could agree a period of negotiation with the EU (X years) and if a reform plan can be agreed, a period of implementation (Y years). At the end of this, we could have a new referendum to either revoke A50 or leave hard-Brexit.
This should keep remainers happy - prospect of remaining in the EU.
This should also keep some/most leavers happy - prospect of most 'gripes' being addressed.
'Hard-line' leavers would probably not be happy.

Obviously this would also depend on how much the EU wants to keep us, and whether the UK could get support for a reformed EU from some of the EU27.

I've not heard any Politician/Party say anything like this ?
Maybe there are some good reasons for this, which I'm sure I'll soon be made aware of Very Happy


The reason is that the EU won't agree to it.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 934
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He sounds like another good guy. There are lots on utbe as we all link to. I do think the sheeple are becoming dimly aware of the bigger picture. But it's not right v left, neolib - v - nationalist etc. It's all just corrupt incompetent govs allowing the growth of tax havens, crown dependencies, non-domicile status, PFI, LLC, LLP, secret trusts, shell companies, dark currencies to avoid capital controls [such as 'eurodollars' in the 50's]. All that money has gone somewhere.

I read JW often although I hardly follow most of his posts. Today he is on target:

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2019/09/17/the-power-of-surrender-part-ii/
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9996
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
The truth is, Jones and his ilk are fifth columnist neo-liberal establishment shills like a significant portion of the PLP.


The truth is that if Owen Jones isn't inside the Labour tent, and those who think like him don't vote Labour, then Labour have no hope of winning anything at all.

The Labour Party has already defeated the blairites. The blairites know they've lost, and the worst of them have already defected to the liberal democrats. Jones is not a blairite.

There *is* a problem with people like Watson and Thornberry. That problem is that they are refusing to accept the agreed Labour policy. They have repeatedly tried to undermine Corbyn on brexit, when all Corbyn has been doing is voicing the policy agreed at the last Labour conference. That is not Corbyn's fault, unless you are blaming him for not being authoritarian enough to silence them. Although in the case of Watson, you can't even blame Corbyn for that, because Watson was directly elected by the party and Corbyn can't sack him as deputy leader.

You own loyalties and priorities seem deeply confused to me. There is only one political party capable of improving the standard of living of the working class relative to the rest of society, and that is the Labour Party. And the perennial truth is that they can only do so if they win an election, and in order to win an election in the current situation then they need to present themselves as the only party offering a way out of the brexit mess. This they are doing. Their offer of a referendum between "a credible leave option" and revoking article 50 will be enough to attract remainers in tory-lab marginals where the libdems have no chance, and also retain the votes of most labour leavers.

This election is the best chance of a genuinely reformist Labour government since the 1940s. The fact that you spend more time attacking Labour than you do attacking the tories or liberal democrats smacks of cognitive dissonance. If you really cared about the working class, you'd want a Corbyn government.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5558
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The latest yougov poll (for what it is worth) has

Con 32
LD 23
Lab 21
Brex 14

Not sure what that does to the seats calculation
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 9996
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS_RalphW wrote:
The latest yougov poll (for what it is worth) has

Con 32
LD 23
Lab 21
Brex 14

Not sure what that does to the seats calculation


It is almost meaningless if the question didn't specify "before October 31st", "after an article 50 extension", etc... Different respondents will have made different assumptions about when the election will take place and what will happen between now and then.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7094
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:
The truth is, Jones and his ilk are fifth columnist neo-liberal establishment shills like a significant portion of the PLP.


The truth is that if Owen Jones isn't inside the Labour tent, and those who think like him don't vote Labour, then Labour have no hope of winning anything at all.

The Labour Party has already defeated the blairites. The blairites know they've lost, and the worst of them have already defected to the liberal democrats. Jones is not a blairite.

There *is* a problem with people like Watson and Thornberry. That problem is that they are refusing to accept the agreed Labour policy. They have repeatedly tried to undermine Corbyn on brexit, when all Corbyn has been doing is voicing the policy agreed at the last Labour conference. That is not Corbyn's fault, unless you are blaming him for not being authoritarian enough to silence them. Although in the case of Watson, you can't even blame Corbyn for that, because Watson was directly elected by the party and Corbyn can't sack him as deputy leader.

You own loyalties and priorities seem deeply confused to me. There is only one political party capable of improving the standard of living of the working class relative to the rest of society, and that is the Labour Party. And the perennial truth is that they can only do so if they win an election, and in order to win an election in the current situation then they need to present themselves as the only party offering a way out of the brexit mess. This they are doing. Their offer of a referendum between "a credible leave option" and revoking article 50 will be enough to attract remainers in tory-lab marginals where the libdems have no chance, and also retain the votes of most labour leavers.

This election is the best chance of a genuinely reformist Labour government since the 1940s. The fact that you spend more time attacking Labour than you do attacking the tories or liberal democrats smacks of cognitive dissonance. If you really cared about the working class, you'd want a Corbyn government.
Precisely your kind of "hang-onto-nurse-for-fear-of-something-worse" bullshit was pushed in America in 2016. And the same outcome is headed our way as a consequence.
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