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Brexit process
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an email from the 38 Degrees campaigning organisation this morning asking for funds because apparently now the government has a large majority MPs are ignoring the electorate by not answering emails and phone calls. The fact that 38 Degrees was calling on MPs to ignore 17.4 million of their voters not so long ago, that the MPs have only just been voted in and it's also Christmas has not been taken into account. Hypocrites?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Little John wrote:
V, do you need me to show you the actual numbers in black and white?

On pretty much any health measure you care to mention, the NHS significantly outperforms the US health care system. Both in terms of average cost and average health outcomes.

But then, in fact, that is not saying very much since the US lies behind most other Western countries in terms of average health outcome and average healthcare cost per capita.

As an American, you have been brainwashed on this, as with so many, many other issues.

I don't propose that the UK should adopt the US system. It has many troubles and the cost is outrageous. I am merely suggesting that in a post Brexit world you Brits should be able to come to the US for say cancer treatment where time is of the essence and outcome rates better.
As to the numbers a quick search shows this about MRIs.
Quote:
We know the UK's MRI capacity is stretched compared to other countries. The UK has 6.1 MRI systems per million people, fewer than countries including Estonia and Slovenia. By comparison, the US has 38.1 scanners per million and Germany has 30.53.May 10, 2017

https://www.rcr.ac.uk/posts/nhs-must-do-more-future-proof-its-mri-capacity-say-imaging-experts
And elsewhere I find:
Quote:
The UK has fewer doctors, nurses and hospital beds than the OECD average.

As to the cost it is true that the UK spends about half as much per capita as the US and has a slightly higher life expectancy. However if you are receiving a quarter of the healthcare services your cost per unit of healthcare (a hard thing to measure) is probably higher. Also the lower expected lifespan in the US including higher infant mortality can be explained by the higher drug use in the US and the violence it creates along with higher tobacco use and obesity which the US with more disposable income per capita indulges itself with.
We could go on with this but it would be better in a healthcare thread separate from Brexit.
In the meantime Best of luck to all of you with your new government.
Actually, I take the points on board about higher drug usage affecting mortality. Thanks for a reasoned response V.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Points to bear in mind when considering the “benefits” of health services. These are only two, and the list could be much longer.

Mortality decreases when doctors strike

Reports of this have been available for decades, and all over the world. It appears to be elective intervention that is the problem, but no instance has been recorded of mortality incrasing when doctors go on strike.

Obesity is not an indulgence of people with more disposable income. The more obese people are generally the poorer people. I accept there are many well of people who are obese, but obesity is a consequence of high fructose additions to food. This is caused by, amongst other things, the removal of fibre to improve shelf life by permitting freezing of processed foods. The taste of processed foods being crap unless modified by flavour enhancers like sugar and salt, because they are cheap.

How it does it, and why fructose is toxic (Robert Lustig)
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that poor people are less well served in the food products that lie within their budgetary constraints. However, I would also add that poor people, having higher levels of poverty induced stress, are more likely to seek out high carbohydrate food in any event. That is to say, relatively high stress levels lead to relatively high set point appetites.

In short, give people a difficult life in all respects but food availability and you will get a lot of fat people.
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ReserveGrowthRulz



Joined: 19 May 2019
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Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone watched this british take on Brexit, Brexit: The Uncivil War and if so, care to venture an opinion on it from those who participated in the process?
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woodburner



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LJ, if you have the time (and it’s quite a bit of time) to watch Lustig’s lecture, it shows that rather than stress causing the appetite problems, it is the bio-chemistry of the food causing the metabolic stress.

A major difficulty is that the crap food appears to be cheap. Where people in the US have been able to convert to a better diet, their medical expenses have fallen to the extent that it was costing less overall. That’s a problem as the US medical industry doesn’t get such a big income. So it’s a good idea to keep people eating cheap crap, and selling them treatments.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not doubt for a moment the prevalence of poor food types available to people in the contribution to obesity levels. However, stress does indeed, all other things being equal, tend to raise set point appetite on average in most vertebrates and particularly in higher order mammals including humans. The research evidence for this is well documented.

Last edited by Little John on Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Has anyone watched this british take on Brexit, Brexit: The Uncivil War and if so, care to venture an opinion on it from those who participated in the process?
It's Remainer propaganda disguised as an "objective" dramatization of events.
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woodburner



Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
I do not doubt for a moment the contribution of poor food types available to people in the contribution to obesity levels. However, stress does indeed, all other things being equal, tend to raise set point appetite on average in most vertebrates and particularly in higher order mammals including humans. The research evidence for this is well documented.


Maybe, but as the editor of the Lancet pointed out, at least 50% of reports from studies are either unintentionally, or intentionally misleading or wrong. Most vertebrates (humans excepted) do not naturally over eat. Only those experimented on in labs seem to exhibit this problem when the experiment was to demonstrate such.
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ReserveGrowthRulz



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Has anyone watched this british take on Brexit, Brexit: The Uncivil War and if so, care to venture an opinion on it from those who participated in the process?
It's Remainer propaganda disguised as an "objective" dramatization of events.


If you don't mind educating me, how was it Remainer propaganda?
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

woodburner wrote:
Little John wrote:
I do not doubt for a moment the contribution of poor food types available to people in the contribution to obesity levels. However, stress does indeed, all other things being equal, tend to raise set point appetite on average in most vertebrates and particularly in higher order mammals including humans. The research evidence for this is well documented.


Maybe, but as the editor of the Lancet pointed out, at least 50% of reports from studies are either unintentionally, or intentionally misleading or wrong. Most vertebrates (humans excepted) do not naturally over eat. Only those experimented on in labs seem to exhibit this problem when the experiment was to demonstrate such.
To be more precise, Woodburner, short term acute stress will lead to elevated levels of adrenaline, which triggers a lower set point appetite. But, more chronic, long term stress will lead to elevated cortisone levels, which triggers a higher set point appetite. Poverty is associated with chronic long term stress.

I should also say, this knowledge is based on studies from such fields as evolutionary biology/psychology and is what might be described as "pure" research conducted for its own sake as opposed to research conducted in the medical profession which, I am quite prepared to concede, may be sometimes tainted by conflicts of interest.
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Little John



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Little John wrote:
ReserveGrowthRulz wrote:
Has anyone watched this british take on Brexit, Brexit: The Uncivil War and if so, care to venture an opinion on it from those who participated in the process?
It's Remainer propaganda disguised as an "objective" dramatization of events.


If you don't mind educating me, how was it Remainer propaganda?


1) Leave voters were represented in the drama almost entirely as uneducated and poor. The implication being they were easily influenced by the campaign.

2) The drama gave far too much credence to a red bus with a slogan on it in terms of swaying the Leave vote. There is no solid evidence to support this. But, it has been persistent a trope of the campaign to overturn Brexit since the day of the referendum result. This drama merely continues that trope. Again, via the constant implication that Leave voters, being stupid and uneducated, were "fooled" by the Leave campaign.

3) Far too much focus was placed on Cummings, who was characterized in the drama as being some kind of Machiavellian genius. Whilst, simultaneously, most of the other portrayals never ventured beyond simple-minded and obvious parody and cliche, especially those of Farage and Banks as "louts". The reason for the above, I suspect, is because fewer bullshit characterizations could be plausibly constructed about Farage because the public had already seen through most of the anti Farage propaganda. Cummings, meanwhile, was still a relatively unknown figure and so could be more easily manipulated in dramatic terms.

4) The closing footnotes of the drama which made mention of the electoral commission were politically biased in favour of remain.

5) More circumstantially, Channel 4, which commissioned the drama, is institutionally rabidly pro-remain - as is Benedict Cumberbatch, the lead actor in the drama.

In short, the drama tread a very delicate tightrope. One in which leave voters could not be portrayed as knuckle dragging xenophobic morons (another favorite trope of the Remain campaign) for fear of alienating over half of the country even more than they already have been. Instead, they were characterized as well meaning, but uneducated simpletons who were inevitably duped by the Machiavellian genius of Dominic Cummings.

As I said, it is Remain propaganda. Albeit, of a slightly more subtle variety than Leavers have been mostly subjected to over the last 3 or so years.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:56 pm    Post subject: So where are we? Reply with quote

Any idea what the details currently are? This is worrying. JW has a lot of contacts:

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2020/01/09/explosive-bojo-folds-no-changes-to-brexit-wa2-as-ursula-vdl-brushes-aside-december-trade-deal-deadline/
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clv101
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was already clear we're pretty much locked into BINO territory now? 11 months isn't enough time and no deal isn't an option.
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stumuz1



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/01/10/work-day-night-secure-trade-deal-strengthen-hand-against-eu/
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