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Brexit process
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 895
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:
No he never.

He had the remainer cabal, desperately trying to usurp democracy. Tony Blair briefing the EU on the best way to grind the electorate down.

The cabal are still alive and kicking.


Sounds to me like you're looking for people to blame.


Blame for what? Quite happy with the performance so far.

Mark wrote:

I've googled it - BJ and the Tories really did win a landslide majority of 80 seats.

And on the domestic front things are going to plan.
However, in the negotiations the EU have tried to play their usual dirty tricks, but it has for the first time since the result, backfired. It's a joy to watch.

Mark wrote:

Tony Blair and any other members of the 'remainer cabal' as you put it can say what they want - shirley that's freedom of speech ?


Freedom of speech as in Lord haw haw.

It's was a convention now broken by TB that former prime ministers STFU, the same courtesy they were given by former prime ministers whilst in office.


Mark wrote:


This is what you wanted - you should be more confident in your man.


I am. Thank you.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
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Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that ettiquette of previous leaders has mainly gone. Look at B liar, or Barry and big Mike, bitching about Trump in the US.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 11148
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-54195658

Quote:

The UK government has been heavily criticised for planning to override part of the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement that it reached with the EU.

It acknowledges that doing so would break international law.

At the heart of the latest Brexit escalation is the thorny issue of where customs checks should be between the UK and the EU.

The BBC's Ros Atkins explains the issue, and it's about much more then where the forms get filled in.


5 minutes to explain that the Irish Border Problem is as real and unsolved as it ever was. The UK government cannot and will not agree to put a border in the Irish Sea. If anything at all has changed, it is that the prospects of a no-deal in January look higher than ever, and the UK government is clearly resigned to the fact that this is probably going to happen.

I am convinced the UK is not going to implement checks in the Irish Sea, regardless of sabre-rattling from Washington, and the threat of no-deal from the EU won't shift the position either. It is politically impossible for the UK government to back down on this, even if the result is trading on WTO terms with almost everybody, at least for a while.

But it is also simply impossible to erect a full-blown customs border across Ireland. It can't be done, not just because of the political problems, but because of the practical problems. That border was never intended as a customs border, so turning it into a customs border would require "straightening" it, which is even more politically unacceptable the erecting a barrier along the existing border. In short, it ain't gonna happen.

Which leaves the EU with a gaping hole in its customs border.

Then what?


Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kenneal - lagger
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Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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Location: Newbury, Berkshire

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
.................Then what?


A customs border in the channel between the British Isles and Europe? If the EU is prepared to split the UK with a customs border why should they not contemplate a border within the EU. After all Ireland probably trades with the UK just as much, or even more so, than it does with the rest of the EU. That would make much better sense although I can see that Ireland wouldn't want to be considered an adjunct to the UK again.
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 11148
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenneal - lagger wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
.................Then what?


A customs border in the channel between the British Isles and Europe? If the EU is prepared to split the UK with a customs border why should they not contemplate a border within the EU. After all Ireland probably trades with the UK just as much, or even more so, than it does with the rest of the EU. That would make much better sense although I can see that Ireland wouldn't want to be considered an adjunct to the UK again.


That means Ireland leaving the customs union, with a looming threat that it will eventually be forced out of the single market too. It looks like the UK can effectively force Ireland out of the EU, unless the EU does a 180 and offers the UK some sort of deal that is sufficiently good from the UK's point of view that Johnson can sell it politically. In other words, access to the single market but full control of fisheries and movement of people.
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kenneal - lagger
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Irish have effectively had all the benefits of being British ever since they succeeded from the Union. Perhaps the peoples of Ireland, north and south should decide on which side their bread is buttered and stick with that one. At the moment they are playing both sides against the middle and squealing as some of the goodies are being taken away.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very potted history of Ireland of the last Hundred years. Other versions are available, in fact, if you are Irish, they are compulsory.


Westminster Government of Ireland Act 1914, basically gave devolution to Ireland, was postponed for WW1.

Irish nationalists sinn fein win a majority in Irish parliament and declare independence but is not recognised.

1916, A small group of Nationalists take over the post office in O’Connell street and refuse to buy a stamp. Although some support for the IRA is present in Ireland not as much as is now taught in domestic Irish history in Ireland. The munitions for the rising are supplied by Germany, being delivered by submarine.

1919 the first sitting of the (now Irish parliament sits and declares independence) A bit like the Scottish parliament declaring independence today.
If they can persuade Scottish judges to follow Holyrood over Westminster the revolution is complete.

Now starts a civil war that pits Irishman against Irishman.
Some want to stay in the UK, some want to leave to leave, some want a whole united Ireland, some don’t mind a north of Ireland still in the UK, a huge amount leave. Contributing to the perennial largest export of Ireland. It’s people.

Ireland is completely split. Most ordinary people couldn’t give a fig either way. The usual goby politicians secure their place in history for all the wrong reasons.

The civil war rages.

It has basically gone on this way ever since.

According to the politicians and bright young journo’s, things were starting to settle down owing to the good Friday agreement.

No.

Huge amounts (£10 billion) of EU (mostly UK and German money) beggar thy neighbour corporate tax rates, as well as becoming de facto tax haven for American tech companies (apple google to name but a few of the societal freeloaders).

This and not paying for any meaningful defence made Ireland wealthy by western standards.
Although like the UK not evenly distributed and mainly based on property values.

This was evinced by Ireland not voting to ratify the Lisbon treaty, but Brussels put Ireland over its knee, smacked its arse, and told it to vote again, the correct way, which they did.

Then came the Brexit vote. And the cosy consensus has come or is coming to an end.

Expect lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth. It will be all perfidious Albion fault.

But in Ireland, like all countries that have had a civil war in the last hundred years emotions are raw but covered over.

An Irish person does not know, or wants to know, if their grandfather was murdered or murdered their neighbours’ grandfather.
Expect them to blame everyone over the next few years. But the Irish civil war still has a few years left to run.

So, when an ill-informed BBC journalist parrots some propaganda put out by either a Remainer, Irish nationalist, or Brussels theocracy, take with a bucketful of salt.

The UK media coverage has been absolutely abysmal.
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RevdTess



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 2961
Location: Newquay

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndercoverElephant wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:

A customs border in the channel between the British Isles and Europe? If the EU is prepared to split the UK with a customs border why should they not contemplate a border within the EU. After all Ireland probably trades with the UK just as much, or even more so, than it does with the rest of the EU. That would make much better sense although I can see that Ireland wouldn't want to be considered an adjunct to the UK again.


That means Ireland leaving the customs union, with a looming threat that it will eventually be forced out of the single market too. It looks like the UK can effectively force Ireland out of the EU, unless the EU does a 180 and offers the UK some sort of deal that is sufficiently good from the UK's point of view that Johnson can sell it politically. In other words, access to the single market but full control of fisheries and movement of people.


The EU are so protective and 'supportive' of Ireland that I can't imagine they'll force them to implement customs checks for import/export to the continent, but if they did, maybe they could compensate them with money raised from sanctions imposed against the UK?
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 895
Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RevdTess wrote:


The EU are so protective and 'supportive' of Ireland

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
As in protective and 'supportive' of Greece?

Is there a reliable metric for the despair, suicides, depopulation of villages, brain drain, that the protective and 'supportive' Troika gave to Greece?
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RevdTess



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hence the quotes Very Happy
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

God has spoken AGAIN, by sending earthquakes to trouble the faithless of Leighton Buzzard.
Soon the houses of "leavers" will be cast down by such. Plagues of locusts will then follow.
The people willfully ignored the earlier warning, when the first case of the new POX was sent ON BREXIT DAY !.

There is still time to repent and remain in the EU.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-54248281
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 785
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumuz1 wrote:
A very potted history of Ireland of the last Hundred years. Other versions are available, in fact, if you are Irish, they are compulsory.


Westminster Government of Ireland Act 1914, basically gave devolution to Ireland, was postponed for WW1.

Irish nationalists sinn fein win a majority in Irish parliament and declare independence but is not recognised.

1916, A small group of Nationalists take over the post office in O’Connell street and refuse to buy a stamp. Although some support for the IRA is present in Ireland not as much as is now taught in domestic Irish history in Ireland. The munitions for the rising are supplied by Germany, being delivered by submarine.

1919 the first sitting of the (now Irish parliament sits and declares independence) A bit like the Scottish parliament declaring independence today.
If they can persuade Scottish judges to follow Holyrood over Westminster the revolution is complete.


I don't think the Sinn Fein majority (of Irish seats in the Commons anyway) came before the Easter Rising and that is quite important. In a majority in 1914 was John Redmond's party, an old Irish nationalist, and supporter of the UK in World War One. I think Sinn Fein won every seat in what is now the Republic in the 1918 election and then refused to take their seats in the Commons (as I think they still continue to do), forming the Dail.

Hard to say but without WW1 and the Easter Rising Ireland could have stayed in the Union, or Commonwealth anyway. After the war of independence/Black and Tans/Irish civil war that was not going to happen.

Quote:
Birkenhead reportedly said on signing the treaty: "Mr Collins, in signing this Treaty I'm signing my political death warrant", to which Collins is said to have replied, "Lord Birkenhead, I'm signing my actual death warrant." Collins was killed by anti-treaty republicans in an ambush at Béal na Bláth in August 1922


Have the hard border in the Irish Sea and let the Irish sort it out and let the smuggling commence. perhaps there will be a lot of 'Ulster made' goods getting into the Common Market.

Nice comment from Adam about the fire and Euro brimstone that awaits the UK from a scorned Brussels.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BritDownUnder wrote:

I don't think the Sinn Fein majority (of Irish seats in the Commons anyway) came before the Easter Rising and that is quite important. In a majority in 1914 was John Redmond's party, an old Irish nationalist, and supporter of the UK in World War One. I think Sinn Fein won every seat in what is now the Republic in the 1918 election and then refused to take their seats in the Commons (as I think they still continue to do), forming the Dail.


I did say it was a potted history!Very Happy

You are right, they won the 1918 Westminster elections and formed the 1919 Irish Parliament (again potted version)




BritDownUnder wrote:


" Collins was killed by anti-treaty republicans in an ambush at Béal na Bláth in August 1922


Collins was killed by fellow Irishmen.

Not many people in the UK have the slightest idea of Irish constitutional history. The civil war bloodbath fought between the Irish, was horrific.
BritDownUnder wrote:

Have the hard border in the Irish Sea and let the Irish sort it out and let the smuggling commence. perhaps there will be a lot of 'Ulster made' goods getting into the Common Market..

Disagree. The border should be in Ireland.

The UK, much to its credit, said it would not put up border crossings, but this was used in combination with the UK people's/Journalists/some politicians ignorance/ Thesersa May's remainer instincts, to come to the present biased situation.

However, the internal market bill has balanced things a bit.

The earthquake that was the Brexit vote was a huge opportunity for Ireland. It could have brought the still waring factions closer. But the EU decided to use Ireland as a bargaining wedge.

BritDownUnder wrote:


Also it was
Nice comment from Adam about the fire and Euro brimstone that awaits the UK from a scorned Brussels.

Very Happy Very Happy
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emordnilap



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumuz1 wrote:
The border should be in Ireland.


Does anyone have any physical experience of other land borders to the EU?

I rarely travel outside the county, never mind country, but I'd be interested in how an internal Irish border might be initially set up.
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stumuz1



Joined: 07 Jun 2016
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Location: Anglesey

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emordnilap wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:
The border should be in Ireland.


Does anyone have any physical experience of other land borders to the EU?

I rarely travel outside the county, never mind country, but I'd be interested in how an internal Irish border might be initially set up.


I once walked, took local buses, from Malaga to La Linea, Where I walked over the border into Gibralter. A weird experience.

However to your question. I will pass it right back!

Why do you need a border in Ireland?

The whole ethos of the GFA was to give power back to the people. If they wanted to be British, Irish, or a bit of both, fine.

An invisible VAT, tax, legal, police border exists and works. But it seems a customs border will lead to TEOTWAWKI?

A logical extension to the GFA would be to allow the people of Ireland to pay their tax/customs duties where they perceive their identities to be best represented.
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