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London Tower Block Blaze
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5729
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also saw a report that gas pipes were installed in the stair well. They were supposed to be boxed in in flame proof materials, but this hadn't happened by the date of the fire. Ruptured gas main was quoted as a b problem for the fire fighters. Corporate manslaughter definitely appears a reasonable line of enquiry.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5729
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daily hate has had over 1000 complaints about their reporting of the fire to the press watchdog already. Hopefully this is their sun/Hillsborough moment.
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5871
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fuzzy wrote:
In a tower block, only the lowest floors should need any extra insulation as higher floors receive heat from below.

No a building loses heat from all of it's exterior surface including the foundation walls and is even subject to wind chill effect just as your exposed skin is. You need to properly insulate it all if you don't want to waste energy.

Quote:


Presumably on the hottest London night of the year, everyone was sweltering with every window and stairwell door propped open.
This turned the interior into a crib fire with maximum airflow to the flames? Is there no air conditioning in these council apartments?
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7792
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air conditioning is not the norm in the UK, and certainly not for council housing (which is subsidised and let at below market rents to the less well off. Broadly similar to what is called a housing project in the USA.)

The weather was warm but not exceptional at the time of the fire.

I consider it very likely that numerous fire check doors were wedged open and therefore contributed to fire spread from one flat to another.

It is regrettably very common practice to wedge open fire doors in such council housing blocks.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7815
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The council are the landlords and they will have a comprehensive list of tenants, or the management company they use will have that list

Enough time has passed that the number of people in hospital and the number of people being temporarily housed will be known

Therefore, the number of missing, will be, roughly speaking the list of tenants minus the known survivors.

Why is this information not being reported?

Why is nobody in the MSM asking why this information is not available?

what the F--k is going on?
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UndercoverElephant



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 10872
Location: south east England

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/16/video-govt-puts-d-notice-gag-on-real-grenfell-death-toll-nationalsecurity/
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
what the **** is going on?

People often illegally sublet council houses hence it is not just a question of who the tenants are it would take quite a bit of time to get this sort of information right. To some extent it can be done from the electoral roll, but that ignores people not entitled to register and children under 17. A mixture of tenancy, benefit (including child benefit), tax, council tax and electoral roll records would need to be used to make a reasonable stab at who was registered to live there.

In the end it appears that the wrong (slightly cheaper) sort of cladding was used for some reason or other. It is awful if only 30 people have died or even fewer and I don't believe that there is any effort going into concealing the size of the disaster. Whether the number of confirmed deaths goes into three figures does not change the situation materially apart from for the families whose members have died.

The public inquiry will look at what warning were given. It appears that warnings about the situation were given, but ignored.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A public enquiry has been called with such rapidity in order to NOT uncover the facts. In other words, a cover up is already been attempted.

The survivors of Grenfell Towers - and the rest of us - must and will demand an INQUEST
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A judicial inquiry is independent of government. I accept that court hearings (and it is effectively an extended court hearing) can be fixed, but that is much harder than standard governmental inquiries.

One would assume there would be inquests in any event, but their scope will be inherently limited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_inquiry
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adam2
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Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 7792
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
The council are the landlords and they will have a comprehensive list of tenants, or the management company they use will have that list

Enough time has passed that the number of people in hospital and the number of people being temporarily housed will be known

Therefore, the number of missing, will be, roughly speaking the list of tenants minus the known survivors.

Why is this information not being reported?

Why is nobody in the MSM asking why this information is not available?

what the **** is going on?


I suspect that this may be a lot more complex than it sounds.
Yes of course the council or managing agents should have a list of tenants, but I would expect that such a list would only include names on the tenancy agreement and not every member of the household.
It would not include overnight guests nor day visitors who were about to depart.
Many victims have names not readily pronounced in English, probably with more than one Anglicised spelling, many have limited spoken English.

Also political correctness will be very important, with everyone taking great care not to suggest that any tenant might have acted improperly.
Fiddles include sub letting rooms in a flat, obtaining alternative housing but letting the council flat for an income, obtaining a second flat under a false name, use of council housing as a workers hostel for a business, and housing illegal immigrants or criminals.
Woe betide any politician or council official who dares to suggest, under present circumstances, that any tenant had done anything like that.
Imagine the howls of outrage !
"minister says babies deserved to die"
And so on.

It will take a while to put the correct spin on any such malpractice that may be discovered.

I doubt that the death toll will ever be known accurately. Some of the victims may have no close family to report them as missing/lost.
Other may have been in the country illegally and their relatives therefore consider that silence is the best option.
Other victims may turn out to have never existed, except as social security claimants.

I expect considerable criticism for suggesting that not every tenant may have been entirely honest.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, that means there is a minimum number that are missing that will be known from the tenant records. So why aren't they releasing that information.

You are making excuses.

In any other disaster in my entire life that has been reported on in the MSM, this kind of bullshit has never happened.

Lilly Allen is right about this.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7815
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnhemming2 wrote:
A judicial inquiry is independent of government. I accept that court hearings (and it is effectively an extended court hearing) can be fixed, but that is much harder than standard governmental inquiries.

One would assume there would be inquests in any event, but their scope will be inherently limited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_inquiry
A lawyer on News-night the other night who represented tenants in a similar, but smaller, fire last year said that there can only be either a public inquiry or an inquest, but not both.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-inquest-public-inquiry-theresa-may-government-hide-deaths-kensington-london-a7792891.html
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5871
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adam2 wrote:


It will take a while to put the correct spin on any such malpractice that may be discovered.



In my view all spin is an effort to obscure the truth so the only "correct spin" would be to bring the spinning top to a halt so that the figures on the side can be read and the blame properly assigned.
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 1150
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A timely point to reshow this classic explaining part of how our London became the 21C version of 'A tale of 2 cities'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEh0Al5a8Sk

I feel sorry for those who have lived through the decline of Londonistan.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like the private market rental was about 400 per week. (for a 2 bed flat)
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
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