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London Tower Block Blaze
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 586
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
What the **** does where these people come from have to do with anything? And I say that as someone who thinks that the mass immigration tot his country has been a compelte and utter disaster. What the **** is the matter with you?.

There are poor people al over this ******* country living in such tower blocks and also in shitty underfunded social housing. And those are, more often than not the WORKING poor.

The rest of the poor are forced to live in private sector housing which is even worse.

I repeat, what the **** is the matter with you?

You ******* ****.


I assume your beeped out comments were aimed at me.

Grow up and go through my points and answer them instead of ad hominem attacks. Start with why Italian architects get council housing.

Luckily I don't live in the UK. If the UK makes a point of housing everyone in the whole world who comes to the UK and declares themselves WORKING class then you will go bankrupt very quickly. At the moment you are mortgaging your children's future.
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The people living in the block were a mixture of council tenants (probably really ALMO tenants, but I have not checked the precise nature of the TMO), private leaseholders of properties that sold in the range of 150-200K and private tenants of leaseholders paying a rent around 20Kpa.

I don't know the balance of the different categories, but an Italian Architect would probably not be an almo tenant.
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PS_RalphW



Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 5537
Location: Cambridge

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Official toll now 79. I don't think it will stay that low.
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1111
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
why did government regulators not stop them?


Good question.
Prior to 2005, factories, offices, shops (& I think tower blocks) were required to have a Fire Certificate. Basically, the Fire Brigade would come along and say that you need a Fire Door here, a Fire Extinguisher there, Emergency Lighting, Signs etc. etc. etc. Post 2005, responsibilities changed and it became the responsibility of the building owner to conduct a Fire Risk Assessment (FRA) to define what is needed. The role of the Fire Brigade became to check/audit Fire Risk Assessments. Surprise surprise, you only need to say you're 'competent' to be able to do a FRA - no specific qualifications required..., and the Fire Brigade don't have the time/resources to go and check them all.... Hence, lots of very poor FRAs have been produced....

Grenfell Tower fire assessments carried out at "competitive" price by firm 'willing to challenge excessive safety rules':
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-assessments-carried-10636588

Whoever did the FRA for Grenfell Tower will be sweating.....
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vtsnowedin



Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 5272
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
why did government regulators not stop them?


Good question.
...............

Grenfell Tower fire assessments carried out at "competitive" price by firm 'willing to challenge excessive safety rules':
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-assessments-carried-10636588

Whoever did the FRA for Grenfell Tower will be sweating.....

Shouldn't they be sweating in a jail cell while they wait for their murder trial date?
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7037
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Mark wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
why did government regulators not stop them?


Good question.
...............

Grenfell Tower fire assessments carried out at "competitive" price by firm 'willing to challenge excessive safety rules':
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-assessments-carried-10636588

Whoever did the FRA for Grenfell Tower will be sweating.....

Shouldn't they be sweating in a jail cell while they wait for their murder trial date?
yes
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Mark



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1111
Location: NW England

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vtsnowedin wrote:
Shouldn't they be sweating in a jail cell while they wait for their murder trial date?


Another good question.
There is now the option of a 'Corporate Manslaughter' prosecution if it is deemed that there has been wilful corporate negligence. Will be interesting to see whether the authorities go down this route. Don't think there have been many successful prosecutions since it was introduced.....
Most people have now forgotten about the wood powder explosion in Cheshire a couple of years ago where 4 people died (1 body never recovered). The HSE is still deliberating, despite plenty of evidence that the company (WTL) had a very poor H&S track record, but not aware of a report surfacing as yet....

Suspect the Grenfell Investigation/Report will also take many years to see the light.....


Last edited by Mark on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fuzzy



Joined: 29 Nov 2013
Posts: 923
Location: The Marches, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble is it's not industrial, so it's environmental health ie the LA, which is the same people who own the block....
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johnhemming2



Joined: 30 Jun 2015
Posts: 2159

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The control of management lies with the TMO which is a separate organisation to the council.
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mr brightside



Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 230
Location: On the fells

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
What the **** does where these people come from have to do with anything? And I say that as someone who thinks that the mass immigration tot his country has been a compelte and utter disaster. What the **** is the matter with you?.

There are poor people al over this ******* country living in such tower blocks and also in shitty underfunded social housing. And those are, more often than not the WORKING poor.

The rest of the poor are forced to live in private sector housing which is even worse.

I repeat, what the **** is the matter with you?

You ******* ****.


Please can you stop swearing all the time? Please...

It's offputting to browse this board and see so much anger and resentment among like-minded people.
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mr brightside



Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 230
Location: On the fells

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this class divide that people speak of is being used by some locals to incite an alarming amount of unrest. There would seem to be quite a few injustice collectors that are getting themselves quite a bit of airtime. I was listening to one chap on Vine's show on friday who was barking on about riots, and accusing Vine of being from some sort of biased elite. A lot of these characters who complain of class divides are actively creating division by means of their own duality. There are a hell of a lot victims in this, but that doesn't mean people have to adopt a victim mentality out of choice. The less we hear from these so-called community spokespersons the better.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be civil unrest or the very real threat of it.The only thing that has ever made those who rule us give any ground is fear.

We are not like minded.
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BritDownUnder



Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 586
Location: Hunter Valley, NSW, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr brightside wrote:
Little John wrote:
What the **** does where these people come from have to do with anything? And I say that as someone who thinks that the mass immigration tot his country has been a compelte and utter disaster. What the **** is the matter with you?.

There are poor people al over this ******* country living in such tower blocks and also in shitty underfunded social housing. And those are, more often than not the WORKING poor.

The rest of the poor are forced to live in private sector housing which is even worse.

I repeat, what the **** is the matter with you?

You ******* ****.


Please can you stop swearing all the time? Please...

It's offputting to browse this board and see so much anger and resentment among like-minded people.

This individual gets read the riot act from time to time and stays quiet just enough to stop being kicked.

Once upon a time this board, even the poster himself ,was a useful source of information. I hope it goes back to that.
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Little John



Joined: 08 Mar 2008
Posts: 7037
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bullshit. You just don't like having your prejudices called out.

You sought to minimise the terrible suffering of the people of Grenfell with the following comments:

Quote:
What right do two Italian architects (probably not too badly paid line of work) who have been in the UK for only few months have to council accommodation if this block was a council block?


Quote:
Seems like a Syrian refugee gets priority council housing same as in Australia.


Quote:

High proportion of foreigners in there is no surprise to someone who has lived in London. It's high time the UK stops trying to look after the whole worlds huddled masses and focuses on its own. The place is already bankrupt and heavily in debt and still digging.


Quote:

...the country is spending itself into a hole financing first world lifestyles for third world immigrants. Sorry if this offends some people but I have emigrated to two countries and paid my own way working 70 hour weeks and losing 50% to tax and I find it a little grating that scroungers get it for free.


Many (though not all) people on here are quite prepared to acknowledge the problems of mass immigration in the UK (not least, me) in terms of the raw economic consequences to indigenous citizens, the pressure on our ecological systems and, finally, the issue of cultural integration - or lack thereof. Particularly with regards to a religion like Islam and its incompatibility with Western secular culture.

However, it takes a certain kind of old-fashioned, ugly, but most of all deeply dumb-ass prejudice to try and directly conflate the above with what happened at Grenfell Tower. What happened at Grenfell happens time and again the world over to the poor and the dispossessed and has got absolutely nothing at all to do with "third world immigrant scroungers".
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mr brightside



Joined: 01 Apr 2011
Posts: 230
Location: On the fells

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little John wrote:
There should be civil unrest or the very real threat of it.The only thing that has ever made those who rule us give any ground is fear.

We are not like minded.


It's down to the nature of the society we currently live in. How is storming council buildings going to change anything? The coppers always get twitchy when people start marching en masse shouting and balling, it's only a short step to broken windows from there- liberty is license etc. There is a clear case here for the council to answer, focus should be switched toward the positive idea that with the right approach the chance of a repeat incident can be eliminated. An approach of attack can only yeild less by virtue of its reliance on destructive emotions such as anger and resentment.

What we have in common is that Powerswitchers are aware of, and willing to act upon, serious threats to their survival. We're prepped, to put it simply.
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